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I believe they need to make “parts” light to counter the additional weight of a heavier chassis and the additions to meet safty regulations, which is probably what you experienced with your odysseies.
There have been rare cases where the newer chassis were lighter or even the same weight as the previous gen chassis… to a point.
there is a tipping point where the car is just too heavy, that they engineer the car to be lighter in a newer chassis.the nissan/datsun Z cars for example.
the 240z, 260z, 280z were basically the same car with different engines.
But with larger bumpers, heavier doors, more sheet metal, it got a lot heavier
between the 240z and the 280z, their is about a 600 pound difference.
and even more so when comparing the 280zx and 300zxMIata and Mustang is an example of the tipping point. they made the cars lighter than the previous versions, on the newest generation.
I think we began seeing this in the mid 80s to early 90s, when shops began getting rid of their brake lathes because discs and drums were no longer meaty enough to support resurfacing. Time was when discs and drums used to last through 2 or 3 brake jobs before they required replacement. In the New Normal, discs are replaced as often as the pads.
The real irony is that with modern oils, fuels and digitized engine management, modern engines run much better and for far longer than they ever used to, but the rest of the vehicle package is so cheapified by vicious cost engineering that the vehicles themselves begin turning into pumpkins soon after the factory warranty expires, and we now have people looking at 10 year-old cars and asking if they’d be trustworthy enough to drive from coast to coast. It never used to be this way.
There’s almost no meat left on the bone anymore. The manufacturers have figured out that the only person in the automotive marketplace they have to please is the original purchaser on the show room floor, and only for as long as the warranty lasts. Anyone else further down the automotive food chain is up the creek without a paddle.
I noticed, on my old 2001 Golf, the torsion bar was very thick and the springs were also thick. When I got my new Golf, it has IRS but noticed the springs were much thinner and smaller gapped. Since TDI models have torsion bars, I looked at one and noticed it too, was much thinner in girth than my old one. It makes sense though, my 2001 Golf weighed roughly 3,100lbs. My new one with navigation, heated leather seats, sunroof, etc. weighs just over 3,000lbs. I’m not against this movement unless it means that our cars are going to fall apart more quickly and be less reliable. However, I don’t think thats the case since I read a few studies that showed that new cars are much more reliable than cars 10, 20, or 30 years ago.
I work at a dealer and all new Mercedes and BMW’s cannot have their rotors machined since they are way too soft. And slowly it’s making its way to Fords and GM’s I heard because of less expensive steel or something…
It has nothing to do with cheaper metal. Actually the metal is better in the newer brakes.
Brakes are engineered for stopping power. The metal in the rotor is partly to absorb and dissipate the heat. The metal wears just like the pads but just not a much. When you machine a rotor, you are making a new surface for the new pads and to correct glazing, grooving, runout, uneven surfacing but you are also taking off even more metal, making the rotor thinner and able to hold as much heat.
Rotors are so much cheaper now, and machining rotors takes up time and is a hastle, plus the negatives of machined rotors, just replace the rotors and be done with it. The only time to machine rotors is if they are relatively new and after a break in they get some runout and you more or less are just truing it up, or say somehow it developes a groove or they glaze it. Chances are you used a crap pad but if not. then use an on car brake lathe, or no access make sure the rotor goes back on the same way it came off. If a rotor is warped and near spec, machining it will only be temparary as it will just warp up again soon.
About Eric’s video. Yes things are getting this way, but cars are still getting bigger, heavier, and more expensive, but you are getting more for your money. Items that were once items only found on luxury cars are now found in economy cars, and some of the newer economy cars can outperform the older sports cars.
I have a 2001 Golf GTI 1.8 turbo. We recently bought a 2012 for my girlfriend, which has a 2.0 litre turbo. They are effectively the same car just two generations apart. When you open the hood of mine it’s like looking the space capsule. There is precisely enough room for everything, which makes doing work on it a total PITA. Even removing the oil filter from above is an exercise in hand squeezing. The 2012 on the other hand has to have a whole big computer for the E-dif and yet it’s big and airy. It’s the sort of place they build computer chips, all precisely defined spaces and everything isolated from everything else. It is completely wonderful. And why shouldn’t we take advantage of our improved engineering capacities? Big Blue wans’t huge because it was built to a higher standard, it was simply the best we could do at the time. Given that, in road cars not being driven in horrible weather, lighter = better in nearly every way, that should be a priority. Give me space, give me cheap components, lighten up my overburdened Golf.
Oh, and on this topic…If you want an example of where things have gone too far, look at electronics. I have an alarm clock from the 70s which I sure was very expensive. Inside it is all hand soldered components exactly the same as the ones in the box on my desk. If something broke, I could almost certainly fix it. I could even figure out how it worked and modify it if I were so inclined. But to make these things mass manufacturable we shrunk resistors, capacitors and diodes. We shrunk transistors so far that we can have millions of them on a chip. This is amazing and has led to a complete revolution in our lives…BUT…Today I wanted to remove my GPS from its casing and install it into the space between my stereo and cupholders. The screen fits perfectly but the circuit board doesn’t. Ok fine I’ll just use my own ries…OH NO WAIT, I CAN’T. RIBBON CABLES. The manufacturing process is so efficient that we have given up any notion of repairability.
We have this in cars too. There are components now which can only be bought as complete units. The tabs on my mom’s headlight were damaged, so I had to buy a whole unit rather than just a backing plate. Yes, the replacement is cheaper…but if you want to fix it and, more critically, learn about it you are pretty close to hosed. I do wonder at the fact we have people to design consumer electronics at all, because life doesn’t introduce you to it anymore. You have to know you want to do it before actually having any experience.
P.S. I want a lexan sunroof p_p
Yet we see parts costs go up and cars becoming disposable. Plastic parts will never last the test of time, especially under the hood. The old stuff is still on the road today from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Durable veichles with little to nothing that can go wrong and what does go wrong can be fixed cheaply and easily. Cars with electronics and small parts are going to be no different than solid state electronics….throw aways. The cost to repair exceeds the cost to replace. I can see my 74′ Chevy outliving me, I can’t say the same for the 90’s dodge(unless I swap in a 12 valve cummins and manual B) .)
And yet the average lifespan of the car has been increasing for the past 2 decades. Yes, some plastic components probably shouldn’t be (the coolant flange on my engine) and electronic components can break (I have a slightly burnt wiper relay on my desk), but tell me that rust proofing hasn’t massively improved, or that electronic fuel injection isn’t basically magic. Or tires, they are just silly good now. You can get fuel economy, grip comfort AND absurd longevity out of mid-priced tires.
I think we make the mistake of confusing car electronics with phones. We are used to replacing our phone every couple of years, often because it inexplicably breaks. Phones are designed to be made cheaply and last until the customer is ready to move on anyway. The electronics in a car are more like professional-grade laptops and really old computers. Stuff like the Atari 2600 or ZX80, bulletproof things with no fans and extremely simple designs. I’ve been opening all kinds of electronics lately and I haven’t seen anything like the aforementioned relay. It only has about a dozen components (most of which are resistors and diodes) and one IC, but the PCB lanes are vast and there is a huge amount of isloation between everything. It’s BIGGER than my phone, and it is effectively just a couple of light duty electromagnets.
My point is, cars are extremely over-engineered and that is way more true now than it was in the 70s. If you have to bring in your car for any meaningful repair before 100,000 KM it is considered unreliable. My mom’s 06 Civic Hybrid, which is as complicated as a small cheap car can get, had 150k on it when we sold it and the only problems we ever had with it were as a result of it it sitting in the snow undriven for months at a time. It’s the repair stage where things have gotten worse.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=146793]And yet the average lifespan of the car has been increasing for the past 2 decades. Yes, some plastic components probably shouldn’t be (the coolant flange on my engine) and electronic components can break (I have a slightly burnt wiper relay on my desk), but tell me that rust proofing hasn’t massively improved, or that electronic fuel injection isn’t basically magic. Or tires, they are just silly good now. You can get fuel economy, grip comfort AND absurd longevity out of mid-priced tires.
I think we make the mistake of confusing car electronics with phones. We are used to replacing our phone every couple of years, often because it inexplicably breaks. Phones are designed to be made cheaply and last until the customer is ready to move on anyway. The electronics in a car are more like professional-grade laptops and really old computers. Stuff like the Atari 2600 or ZX80, bulletproof things with no fans and extremely simple designs. I’ve been opening all kinds of electronics lately and I haven’t seen anything like the aforementioned relay. It only has about a dozen components (most of which are resistors and diodes) and one IC, but the PCB lanes are vast and there is a huge amount of isloation between everything. It’s BIGGER than my phone, and it is effectively just a couple of light duty electromagnets.
My point is, cars are extremely over-engineered and that is way more true now than it was in the 70s. If you have to bring in your car for any meaningful repair before 100,000 KM it is considered unreliable. My mom’s 06 Civic Hybrid, which is as complicated as a small cheap car can get, had 150k on it when we sold it and the only problems we ever had with it were as a result of it it sitting in the snow undriven for months at a time. It’s the repair stage where things have gotten worse.[/quote] I see where your coming from, but I will have to disagree. Sure, engines had to be reringed or rebuilt more often back in the day but this was due to a combination of iron rings and lower quality motor oils. A properly rebuilt older motor that uses modern oils fixes this issue. As far as rustproofing, you can apply modern rustproofing techniques to superior older thicker steel. I’ve seen stuff from 2005 that has worse rust than stuff from 1955…quality of steel and steel thickness makes a difference. My truck(74′) has it’s original frame, brake rotors, cab, tie rods!, etc. Stuff was made to last and was not made to be replaced after 5 years. Frames from the 90s+ have already rotted out.
Back to the electronics, they still make it cost prohibitive to repair at some point due to the cost of them. A PCM, various sensors, BCM, wiring harnesses, drive by wire, etc all cost much much more than their simple older mechanical counterparts and in some cases, cannot be gotten at all. I have a friend who restores vettes who couldn’t get a computer for a 90s vette because it was “obsolete”. Good luck keeping newer vehicles on the road for 50 years with a planned obsolescence logic. Cars lasting longer is more than just 150,000-200,000 miles in my book, they need to be able to stand the test of time like the non computerized cars have.Ok, I think I can do you a compromise. For the average owner under normal or abusive conditions, a modern car will last significantly longer than something from the 70s and with much less maintenance. However, the POTENTIAL lifespan of an older more mechanical car is longer if it is fastidiously looked after. Does that sound reasonable?
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=146806]Ok, I think I can do you a compromise. For the average owner under normal or abusive conditions, a modern car will last significantly longer than something from the 70s and with much less maintenance. However, the POTENTIAL lifespan of an older more mechanical car is longer if it is fastidiously looked after. Does that sound reasonable?[/quote] I can agree with that. Of course the typical car owner doesn’t plan to keep their vehicle for a lifetime so if they get 5-10 years out of it they are happy. Most 80s stuff can’t be properly restored due to electronics becoming obsolete so they end up becoming restomods or drag cars. Hall effect sensors, proprietary rheostats, potentiometers, BCM’s and PCMS will be the death of the restoration trade/hobby as anything after the late 70s cannot be restored to showroom specs.
[quote=”Chevyman21″ post=146802]
Back to the electronics, they still make it cost prohibitive to repair at some point due to the cost of them. A PCM, various sensors, BCM, wiring harnesses, drive by wire, etc all cost much much more than their simple older mechanical counterparts and in some cases, cannot be gotten at all. I have a friend who restores vettes who couldn’t get a computer for a 90s vette because it was “obsolete”. Good luck keeping newer vehicles on the road for 50 years with a planned obsolescence logic. Cars lasting longer is more than just 150,000-200,000 miles in my book, they need to be able to stand the test of time like the non computerized cars have.[/quote]I certainly wouldn’t argue with that. Because they are proprietary It will be very difficult for the aftermarket to perfectly replicate tanythign with an IC. Fortunately for cars like mine which have an extensive modding community there are non-OE parts available. That isn’t very useful to somebody with a Sunfire but it does suggest that it is at least possible for replacements to be made if a company can be bothered. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the future you could buy one of a few ECUs and install the software for your particular vehicle. It’s really hard to say. They certainly wouldn’t be factory spec though.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=146853][quote=”Chevyman21″ post=146802]
Back to the electronics, they still make it cost prohibitive to repair at some point due to the cost of them. A PCM, various sensors, BCM, wiring harnesses, drive by wire, etc all cost much much more than their simple older mechanical counterparts and in some cases, cannot be gotten at all. I have a friend who restores vettes who couldn’t get a computer for a 90s vette because it was “obsolete”. Good luck keeping newer vehicles on the road for 50 years with a planned obsolescence logic. Cars lasting longer is more than just 150,000-200,000 miles in my book, they need to be able to stand the test of time like the non computerized cars have.[/quote]I certainly wouldn’t argue with that. Because they are proprietary It will be very difficult for the aftermarket to perfectly replicate tanythign with an IC. Fortunately for cars like mine which have an extensive modding community there are non-OE parts available. That isn’t very useful to somebody with a Sunfire but it does suggest that it is at least possible for replacements to be made if a company can be bothered. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the future you could buy one of a few ECUs and install the software for your particular vehicle. It’s really hard to say. They certainly wouldn’t be factory spec though.[/quote] The biggest problem lies in the rules and regulations for 1975 and on. While some states don’t care, the feds and some of the more restrictive states won’t allow you to modify cars made after 1975 if the car is to be for street use. Lets use my two trucks as an example, the 1974 has no emissions equipment at all and has modifications that would otherwise be illegal if it was a newer truck such as the intake manifold and long tube headers. The 1998 dodge ram I cannot do anything to(legally) the exhaust(due to cat and O2 sensors), engine computer, evap system etc. These systems must be in place in some states. Say I wanted to convert it to a carb and rip out the computer, some states say that I cannot do that. Some states even say that one cannot do an engine swap to larger displacement if at all on vehicles made after a certain year.
My point is this, any car that is 1980 or later will be nightmare in such states to inspect and register. The regulations on what you can and cannot do will make them undesirable to keep running. Back in the 50s/60s you could hotrod a 30s or 40s car to your dreams content. In the 80s and 90s people hotrodded and restored the 50s 60s and 70s stuff. I can’t see the cycle continuing with what the EPA has done. People will restore stuff up to the late 70s…but as time marches on the stuff made after will end up in the crusher.
[quote=”nintendoeats” post=146806]Ok, I think I can do you a compromise. For the average owner under normal or abusive conditions, a modern car will last significantly longer than something from the 70s and with much less maintenance. However, the POTENTIAL lifespan of an older more mechanical car is longer if it is fastidiously looked after. Does that sound reasonable?[/quote]
I’m not so sure. Modern engines definitely run much better for much longer than their sloppy 70s counterparts. Chalk it up to finer tolerances and better surface finishing, much better oils, detergent-laden fuels, and the precision fuel metering and spark timing afforded by computerization.
The irony is that modern cars themselves are built with just enough meat on the bones to get through the warranty period, and they tend to begin slowly composting themselves soon after the warranty expires, due to the “smaller, lighter, cheaper” mindset which has gripped automotive corporate culture. Just look at these forums and the issues people are wrestling with. I can’t believe people have to deal with things like suspension bushings and engine mounts. Hell, in the 70s, suspension bushings and engine mounts were never an issue. And anyone who’s ever lived with a Chrysler minivan long enough knows that there comes a point when you just can’t keep up with the issues anymore, no matter how well the van’s been maintained. And those Chrysler minivans aren’t alone in that respect.
Aside from smaller, lighter and cheaper, another culprit is the technical complexity of today’s vehicles. It’s pretty self-evident that a simple mechanism will function properly for a longer period of time than a complex mechanism. Now, when “smaller, lighter, cheaper” engineering is injected into complex systems, you’ve got a recipe for unhappiness.
Biggest reason why parts are being made smaller, lighter, and cheaper is due to the advances in design, engineering, and manufacturing. CAD/CAM-E allows car manufactures (as well as virtually all other industries) to design, build, and test every part and major system in a virtual environment before even prototyping the first piece. Engineers now know how much material to use and where to use it to get a part that is strong enough with very little waste. This pays dividends in making engines, transmissions, suspensions, and chassis lighter, stronger, and cheaper while improving NVH characteristics. This also means there is less room for error in a given design and less tolerance to changes owners might make. This doesn’t even begin to consider advances in materials and structural adhesives that are replacing welds, bolts, and screws.
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