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Greetings Eric,
not sure if this topic has ever come up at any point in time but as a mechanic everybody faces it at some point where you’re working on a vehicle and basically everything about it seems to be built for obsolescence. This is mostly true it seems with European cars as well as English cars. Again, I know you’ve dealt with these cars at some point in your career as an automotive technician and you know how frustrating they can be to work on. I’m sure you’ve seen Scotty Kilmer’s videos where he vents about the complexity of these designs and has now even gone so far as to create a playlist of YouTube videos entitled “bad car designs it’s best to avoid”. I noticed in most situations when it comes to controversial topics like this you often tend to be neutral to these sorts of topics, where as Scotty’s position is a lot more straight forward and a bit exasperating if you will, and rather humorous I must say. Not saying that’s a bad thing because I can certainly understand why you wouldn’t want to create controversy with your viewers. But I was wondering if maybe you’d be willing to talk more about this topic in depth of over engineered vehicles? I know you’ve talked a little bit about the theory behind all of this and why these engineers do what they do, but I haven’t really seen you shed much light in the way of a mechanics point of view. so that’s why I was wondering if you think this might be a good topic to do an ETCG1 video about or if you think it might be too controversial? I look forward to hearing your response.
Michael
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[quote=”McWicked” post=115311]I’d like to hear an example of “over-engineering”. The term gets thrown around a lot, but I’m never quite sure what people mean exactly.[/quote]
So first lets discuss the definition… What is over-engineering? Building something that exceeds the scope of what it is intended to do…. One could also argue that the definition could be building something so difficult to work on, that only people with special training and special tools could work on it….
-Karl
[quote=”Chevyman21″ post=115314][quote=”McWicked” post=115311]I’d like to hear an example of “over-engineering”. The term gets thrown around a lot, but I’m never quite sure what people mean exactly.[/quote] from a mechanics perspective and I’m sure I can speak for most of us, we believe in the phrase “KISS” or “keep it simple stupid.” overengieering is anything that doesn’t agree with that in my opinion.[/quote]
Thanks Chevyman, but I was looking for something a little more specific. Most engineers (believe it or not) strive to make their designs as simple as possible. I’m interested in hearing about specific designs that you have come across that appear “over engineered”.
[quote=”McWicked” post=115317][quote=”Chevyman21″ post=115314][quote=”McWicked” post=115311]I’d like to hear an example of “over-engineering”. The term gets thrown around a lot, but I’m never quite sure what people mean exactly.[/quote] from a mechanics perspective and I’m sure I can speak for most of us, we believe in the phrase “KISS” or “keep it simple stupid.” overengieering is anything that doesn’t agree with that in my opinion.[/quote]
Thanks Chevyman, but I was looking for something a little more specific. Most engineers (believe it or not) strive to make their designs as simple as possible. I’m interested in hearing about specific designs that you have come across that appear “over engineered”.[/quote] it was a general statement yes, I also added an edit with an example. However I will give another. What is with the LCD screens that incorporate every function under the sun from nav to radio to A/C; god forbid the LCD screen goes out, you lose everything. Knobs and switches weren’t good enough? Also, why eliminate a shift linkage? Quite a few cars now have an electrical “module” now as an input for the computer where the knob(Chrysler), button(Aston Martin), or shifter(most everything else) rather than a simple mechanical linkage.
[quote=”ToyotaKarl” post=115316][quote=”McWicked” post=115311]I’d like to hear an example of “over-engineering”. The term gets thrown around a lot, but I’m never quite sure what people mean exactly.[/quote]
So first lets discuss the definition… What is over-engineering? Building something that exceeds the scope of what it is intended to do…. One could also argue that the definition could be building something so difficult to work on, that only people with special training and special tools could work on it….
-Karl[/quote]
Most engineers would probably define over-engineering as the former. As for the latter… what are you complaining about? You’re one of the people with the special training and tools. 😉
If this weren’t such a fun discussion, I would call you a troll 🙂 …… Just kidding…
It is a good discussion… What is over engineering…
I agree with what stiv625 said…
I don’t work on European cars for several reasons… Lets say… Oh, Land rovers… They have shyte wiring and you can spend days on them and still come up with little…
You sit and look at a VW EGR cooler and wonder “Why the hell did they put that there?”
You look at a Volvo Heater core and say “They started with the Heater core and built the car around it”
I define special tools as ones that costs hundreds, and are not readily available…(perhaps being defined as being able to be purchased on the Snap on Truck)….. sure, you make a good argument with special training… we as tech should have it… but more is required when working on European makes (or at least a different way of thinking) IMHO…
Cheers!
-Karl
TK makes an excellent point. I still stand by my overegineering definition however, you take a simple cable, dipstick, linkage, shaft, etc. and replace it with electronics and computer controls. I think my friend in IT said it best: “computers have no place in cars aside from fuel and spark management”
[quote=”Chevyman21″ post=115319] it was a general statement yes, I also added an edit with an example. However I will give another. What is with the LCD screens that incorporate every function under the sun from nav to radio to A/C; god forbid the LCD screen goes out, you lose everything. Knobs and switches weren’t good enough? Also, why eliminate a shift linkage? Quite a few cars now have an electrical “module” now as an input for the computer where the knob(Chrysler), button(Aston Martin), or shifter(most everything else) rather than a simple mechanical linkage.[/quote]
I actually know the answer to both of those and you won’t like either one of them.
1. LCD screens are cheap. The exact same LCD screen can be used across multiple models (unlike custom consoles, knobs, and switch gear) which makes them even cheaper to use. Also, since you now can’t swap out the factory radio without lousing up your GPS, HVAC, and backup camera… the consumer is more willing to pay for the “premium” sound system, since they’ll be stuck with it. And right now, selling consumers on electronic gizmos is where all of the $$$ is at.
2. Getting rid of the shift linkage gives interior designers more options to play with. With a servo-actuated transmission, you can mount the shifter anywhere (or have no shifter at all). Also you can sell suckers the same transmission for more money. “Sure this ol’ boring stick comes standard… but a smart and discriminating buyer, such as yourself, will choose the new Touch-o-Matic Drive System…” Again $$$ for no value added.
IMO these are definitely bad ideas. Good ideas for the car makers, but terrible for everyone else. Basically anytime you run across a crappy design on a car and ask yourself “Why on Earth did they do that?” The answer almost always is “Money”.
[quote=”McWicked” post=115327]Basically anytime you run across a crappy design on a car and ask yourself “Why on Earth did they do that?” The answer almost always is “Money”.[/quote]
Then how can Honda and Toyota build such simple to work on cars that are affordable and others can’t?
:stick:
-Karl
[quote=”McWicked” post=115327][quote=”Chevyman21″ post=115319] it was a general statement yes, I also added an edit with an example. However I will give another. What is with the LCD screens that incorporate every function under the sun from nav to radio to A/C; god forbid the LCD screen goes out, you lose everything. Knobs and switches weren’t good enough? Also, why eliminate a shift linkage? Quite a few cars now have an electrical “module” now as an input for the computer where the knob(Chrysler), button(Aston Martin), or shifter(most everything else) rather than a simple mechanical linkage.[/quote]
I actually know the answer to both of those and you won’t like either one of them.
1. LCD screens are cheap. The exact same LCD screen can be used across multiple models (unlike custom consoles, knobs, and switch gear) which makes them even cheaper to use. Also, since you now can’t swap out the factory radio without lousing up your GPS, HVAC, and backup camera… the consumer is more willing to pay for the “premium” sound system, since they’ll be stuck with it. And right now, selling consumers on electronic gizmos is where all of the $$$ is at.
2. Getting rid of the shift linkage gives interior designers more options to play with. With a servo-actuated transmission, you can mount the shifter anywhere (or have no shifter at all). Also you can sell suckers the same transmission for more money. “Sure this ol’ boring stick comes standard… but a smart and discriminating buyer, such as yourself, will choose the new Touch-o-Matic Drive System…” Again $$$ for no value added.
IMO these are definitely bad ideas. Good ideas for the car makers, but terrible for everyone else. Basically anytime you run across a crappy design on a car and ask yourself “Why on Earth did they do that?” The answer almost always is “Money”.[/quote] couldn’t have asked for a better explanation thank you very much! How bout the disappearance of the oil dipstick? Can you give me a reason for that? Electronic sensors seem like they”d cost more for less benifit. You can’t check visual condition or smell with a sensor!
Here is a good example of a guy asking why an Audi keeps shutting off after it runs for two minutes… Just recently posted….
Sure, I could take a stab at it, but the fine Teutonic engineering could have the fuel shut off because the pressure is too high or the windows were too low, or the EGR DPFE sensor is not reading properly…..
Anyone have a reasonable answer other than a fuel delivery issue or a spark related problem?
[quote=”ToyotaKarl” post=115332]Here is a good example of a guy asking why an Audi keeps shutting off after it runs for two minutes… Just recently posted….
Sure, I could take a stab at it, but the fine Teutonic engineering could have the fuel shut off because the pressure it too high or the windows were too low, or the EGR DPFE sensor is not reading properly…..
Anyone have a reasonable answer other than a fuel delivery issue or a spark related problem?
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/kunena/8-Service-and-Repair-Questions-Answered-Here/54122-2001-audi-start-and-die%5B/quote%5D heh it don’t sound as simple as just fuel or spark. It probably is Audi/VW specific. I don’t focus on German makes so I probably wouldn’t be much help there.
I might be a bit biased here because Its mostly VW’s that I work on these days but I am going to stick up for them here.
They certainly have had their issues over the years depending on the model with reliability and or stupid overlooked mistakes. But find me one company that hasn’t had any issues.
Bland and boring may be true with some of their later cars yes but why would you push your cars as high performance machines when the same company owns Audi, Porsche, Bugatti and Lamborghini? I’d say the company has stuck to its original idea pretty closely – a car for everyone. On a side note you should test drive one of th new GTIs. Nothing boring there.
I could turn this into a VW vs the Domestic auto world but I wont. There is enough of that, and I think Eric would appreciate not having a flame war on his site 🙂 Instead I’ll happily get in my 24 year old rust free, electrical issue free and defiantly not bland VW and drive to work.
If you read the discussion that goes in the comments of the Imports vs Domestics video, you’ll see that there are a lot of opinions on which vehicles are designed the best/worst. Thing is, this is subjective. I could talk all day about MY opinions on the topic, but mine is not the only opinion. The reason I shy away from topics like this is because I just don’t see the point. I say this vehicle is a bad design and 10 other people disagree just on principal. It just insights controversy and becomes nothing more than a he said she said kind of thing. Honestly, I’ve had enough of that lately and I’d just like to focus on repair videos for a while. I might make a video on this topic at some point but given the amount of discussion it’s raised here, I don’t see why I’d need to. To me it seems like it’s provocative just for the sake of being provocative.
It seems like it can tie into the whole brand loyalty thing too… You have good/bad experiences with a particular design and your thinking gets adapted to the engineering philosophy of that vehicle. So you start to appreciate the idiosyncrasies of a design that does well for you, whether it be amazingly complex or admirably simple. I wouldn’t simplify it to just domestic vs euro vs Asian though, my 90s Mercedes is a breeze to do anything on, I’ve seen plenty of Japanese cars from the same era where it’s like wtf is going on here!!! And I’d even argue new vs old some there too, obviously cars are integrating more electronics now but I won’t be afraid to wrench on our ’12 Chevy when the time comes. New Ford vehicles just seem like a nightmare to touch, probably from all the European influence they’ve had 😉
Looking for an over-engineered Japanese car… My avatar is a cut out of the Miller cycle (5-stroke) supercharged V6 found in the 95-02 Mazda millenia S. Delayed intake valve timing, two intercoolers, several valves and actuators controlling boost, something like 21ft of vacuum lines, it’s got it all. Even the stealership didn’t really know much about it. But it was a great car, so I learned to work on it myself. Which may be anther point to the quality of designs… If you understand it and work on it yourself and can enjoy the complex features or great performance of an over-engineered vehicle, go for it. But if you take your car to a mechanic to have the tail light bulb replaced and are on a serious budget, there are plenty of bland boring basic reliable cars out there! Haha
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