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Hey Eric,
I was having an issue with my car and I could not figure out what was causing it, so I brought it to my local mechanic. He and I went for a test drive to diagnose it, and we got to talking about cars. He and his brother own the shop that their father started in 1956 (pretty cool). Anyway, I asked him how he liked owning a shop, and he said something I found very interesting. He said, “Well, it’s a hard business to make money nowawdays. Back in the 80’s, it was much easier to make money. Back then, cars needed more work to keep them running well. In the winter, a lot of cars would need tuning to start reliably. Now, cars have gotten better and have fewer problems.” On a side note, this shop is very busy all the time, so I can only imaging how busy they were back then.
What are your thoughts? Do modern cars have fewer issues as compared to cars in the 1980’s? Could this be a topic for a video?
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Well its something like this. Older cars were less complicated, but needed fairly frequent service. Points adjustment and or replacement. Timing, cap rotor, wires, coils, Choke adjustments for the winter. Spark plugs fouling up due to chokes being off, rusted mufflers, generator brushes, I could go on, but old cars were not like now, where you could just drive 20,000 and do nothing. Most of what went out back then had to do with fuel not being metered precisely and us grease monkeys having to compensate and or replace. Motors didn’t last as long because of cylinder washing in cold weather things like that. Sticky needles and seats… you get the idea. This kept a steady stream of business, and this is also why there was a service station on every corner. To keep up with this. The upside was that parts were cheap, fairly universal and changed often. Downside is that cars that were neglected would really ended up smoking up the roads things like that. Its my personal opinion that at some point cars peaked with a balance of computer and mechanical devices, but like so many things, we have gone way, way to far and made to many things like wipers and door locks computer dependant, and there is simply no reason for over complication, but thats a different topic altogether.
[quote=”andrewbutton442″ post=124073]Well its something like this. Older cars were less complicated, but needed fairly frequent service. Points adjustment and or replacement. Timing, cap rotor, wires, coils, Choke adjustments for the winter. Spark plugs fouling up due to chokes being off, rusted mufflers, generator brushes, I could go on, but old cars were not like now, where you could just drive 20,000 and do nothing. Most of what went out back then had to do with fuel not being metered precisely and us grease monkeys having to compensate and or replace. Motors didn’t last as long because of cylinder washing in cold weather things like that. Sticky needles and seats… you get the idea. This kept a steady stream of business, and this is also why there was a service station on every corner. To keep up with this. The upside was that parts were cheap, fairly universal and changed often. Downside is that cars that were neglected would really ended up smoking up the roads things like that. Its my personal opinion that at some point cars peaked with a balance of computer and mechanical devices, but like so many things, we have gone way, way to far and made to many things like wipers and door locks computer dependant, and there is simply no reason for over complication, but thats a different topic altogether.[/quote] Over-complication is exactly the problem with newer cars. KISS applies to everything. Another good saying is “the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain” or something to that effect. In any case, I could talk alot about this subject having owned a newer vehicle, and now owning a 70s vehicle as a daily driver. Most of my thoughts(and many others thoughts on the matter) are in this popular thread here: http://www.ericthecarguy.com/kunena/2-General-Discussion/55006-what-things-do-you-hate-about-modern-cars
Good topic. I actually started in the early 90’s so I had a taste of those 80’s vehicles they were referring to. Things have changed quite a bit since then. I’ll see when I can work this topic in.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Early 80s were a bunch of funny things. Imported cars had MOSTLY had fuel injection, generally. Bosch CFI or things like that. Simple, common and it worked. American cars had nasty things like feedback quadrajets, throttle bodys with injectors, and at the end of the decade, port fuel injection which of course made everyones life easier..GM was used about everything between 80 and 90, just depended on what it was. A Camaro for example used 4 6 and 8 cylinder engines with everything from basic carburetor to full TPI injection in one decade. Electronic ignition Came about for ford in about 72, 73 or so for Chrysler, and 74 for GM hei, so more the ignition headaches primary were gone for newer stuff, however cars from the 50s were still on the road in the 70s, usually driven by older folks or whatever so tuning an old car was a reality – very easy though. The real bugger of 80s cars to me is emissions controls that ran on vacuum ports, switches, mazes of vacuum hoses and trees, and this made later cars with computer controls easier to deal with. You know, I find it funny, VW Beetles, other European and nicer Asian cars dumped carbs mid 70s, but cheapy cars like lower end Hondas still had carbs up through the early 90s, so up until recently, carbs may have been seen on cars newer than one would think, however. I would say any car with a malfunctioning Keihn carb would be better off thrown away than repaired when putting repair cost against vehicle value these days. I would say without question that 2005 and newer cars with CANS systems are to complicated for their own good, and earlier stuff, but not to much earlier is just where one should be for computer assistance vs mechanicals. I think Ecms are a godsend for powertrains, whether it be shifting in something in a late model tran or fuel trims or what else it may do to increase power and efficiency -these things were never managed well by pure mechanical devices, however I see no good reason for body control modules, AT All. Chasing down a miss with coil packs or bad injectors or the likes, yea, count me in. Running through body panels to find broken connections to bcms that need to be programmed by factories so the windows and locks can work, or Onstar, Serius, ect, count me OUT. I ran into a technological wall with ECC systems in Fords years ago because of their NON Flashable ECMs which were limited, however later when I started reprogramming GM ECMs with Bin files, that true made me appreciate the technology at that time. Now, however whats going with automobiles and computers is pure insanity.
[quote=”andrewbutton442″ post=124124]Early 80s were a bunch of funny things. Imported cars had MOSTLY had fuel injection, generally. Bosch CFI or things like that. Simple, common and it worked. American cars had nasty things like feedback quadrajets, throttle bodys with injectors, and at the end of the decade, port fuel injection which of course made everyones life easier..GM was used about everything between 80 and 90, just depended on what it was. A Camaro for example used 4 6 and 8 cylinder engines with everything from basic carburetor to full TPI injection in one decade. Electronic ignition Came about for ford in about 72, 73 or so for Chrysler, and 74 for GM hei, so more the ignition headaches primary were gone for newer stuff, however cars from the 50s were still on the road in the 70s, usually driven by older folks or whatever so tuning an old car was a reality – very easy though. The real bugger of 80s cars to me is emissions controls that ran on vacuum ports, switches, mazes of vacuum hoses and trees, and this made later cars with computer controls easier to deal with. You know, I find it funny, VW Beetles, other European and nicer Asian cars dumped carbs mid 70s, but cheapy cars like lower end Hondas still had carbs up through the early 90s, so up until recently, carbs may have been seen on cars newer than one would think, however. I would say any car with a malfunctioning Keihn carb would be better off thrown away than repaired when putting repair cost against vehicle value these days. I would say without question that 2005 and newer cars with CANS systems are to complicated for their own good, and earlier stuff, but not to much earlier is just where one should be for computer assistance vs mechanicals. I think Ecms are a godsend for powertrains, whether it be shifting in something in a late model tran or fuel trims or what else it may do to increase power and efficiency -these things were never managed well by pure mechanical devices, however I see no good reason for body control modules, AT All. Chasing down a miss with coil packs or bad injectors or the likes, yea, count me in. Running through body panels to find broken connections to bcms that need to be programmed by factories so the windows and locks can work, or Onstar, Serius, ect, count me OUT. I ran into a technological wall with ECC systems in Fords years ago because of their NON Flashable ECMs which were limited, however later when I started reprogramming GM ECMs with Bin files, that true made me appreciate the technology at that time. Now, however whats going with automobiles and computers is pure insanity.[/quote] Pre-smog quadrajets are a wonderful thing though. I love mine(casting made 1970). Carbs became overly complicated when emissions controls were added circa 1975-1976. Like you said, the vacuum lines and the like were ridiculous. Any post smog carb is harder to rebuild due to the vast amount of unnecessary junk added to them for emissions.
Pretty cool you have a 454 dually truck. Definatley and enthusiast vehicle. My shop/work truck is a 3500 Dually with a 454 TBI injection but it sits this time of year due to the SNOW. Collect your quadrajet stuff now, its getting harder to find. Stock up on Ethanol-proof accelerator pump cups, nylon primary meter rod retainers ect. Who knows how long before we start having to scrounge this stuff used.
[quote=”andrewbutton442″ post=124139]Pretty cool you have a 454 dually truck. Definatley and enthusiast vehicle. My shop/work truck is a 3500 Dually with a 454 TBI injection but it sits this time of year due to the SNOW. Collect your quadrajet stuff now, its getting harder to find. Stock up on Ethanol-proof accelerator pump cups, nylon primary meter rod retainers ect. Who knows how long before we start having to scrounge this stuff used.[/quote] Thanks and ya, duallies don’t like snow. Quadrajet parts hopefully will be available to us for a long while. After that, there are always fabrication possibilities.
I always heard that if you removed a carburetor, and put a sponge soaked in gas on the opening on the intake, an engine would run. I have yet to try this, and probably never will, but I supposes as long as sponges and combustable materials are made, we will continue to be able to run our cars some way, even crudely. LOL.
[quote=”andrewbutton442″ post=124153]I always heard that if you removed a carburetor, and put a sponge soaked in gas on the opening on the intake, an engine would run. I have yet to try this, and probably never will, but I supposes as long as sponges and combustable materials are made, we will continue to be able to run our cars some way, even crudely. LOL.[/quote] Intresting, I haven’t heard of that one. Ya, we will be able to keep our cars running no matter what. Getting creative is part of the job! In any case, it is my perogative to preserve the past.
Cars are getting better……But Diesel trucks….Well, it seems to me the highwater mark was the early 2000’s. The first commonrails and early HUEI engines were the best. These engines came out during a time when few emissions controls were placed on the motors. They did have Cats on the exhaust and some had EGR but for the most part it was more simple and intuitive. The trucks were easier to work on, got great mileage and great power. All of the trucks had their issues but less than today. Lets take Ford for example…That’s what I know the most about.
1994.5-1997- 7.3 International Powerstroke, This was my favorite. Lots of room in the engine bay, simple electronic injection system and completely OBDII compliant. Everything that is important to the engine can be monitored with a scan tool. The High pressure oil system was external to the motor and easy to fix, now the down side is that it is prone to leaking, but the repairs are easy.
1999-2002.5 7.3 International Powerstroke, This is considered by most to be the pinnacle of the Powerstrokes. It had everything from the previous generation and a charge air cooler. These truck are sought after today and still command a price higher than the 03-07s.
2003-2007 6.0 Internation Powerstroke, this is where everything went wrong. Under pressure to limit the NOX emissions International developed this 32 valve HUEI motor. It was more complex and larger. They moved the high pressure oil system into the motor vastly increasing the size of the top end. What was simple on the 7.3 became a chore on the 6.0. And what made it worse is you needed to be in there constantly. Early motors were so bad Ford bought back many. Later models were better but still plagued with issues. Ford incorporated a water cooled EGR system. Absolute nightmare, caused excessive coolant temp, cracked and leaked exhaust gas into the coolant contaminating an already over worked system. They switched to an internal oil/water cooler with passage spacing about the same size as the filter. Oil coolers commonly fail all the time contaminating both oil and coolant. Coolers plug and loose there efficiency causing the motor to over heat and fail. Ford used a low grade headbolt which fails in MOST cases causing damage to the headgasket and sometimes warping the block and head. What makes it worse is that the huge heads originally required that you remove the cab of the truck to service them. Tools have been made to remove the heads with the cab on, but many still remove the cab. Ford switched to a new variable vane turbo which requires a total tear down EVERY 20,000 miles to clean the vanes from soot to keep it from wearing out the unison ring and burning up the vanes , which if it does requires a replace if the entire unit at about $1200 for the part. Injector leaks are common, IPR failure is common(Usually happens when an un experienced tech changes oil cooler and contaminants the oil in front of the filter and all the junk gets pushed into the IPR at 3000psi) Plastic fittings on a High pressure oil pump that regularly sees 3000psi. Its goes on and on. Now these motors can be made to be awesome. I tell anyone looking at a 6.0 to plan to spend between $3k to $10k past the the purchase price of the truck to correct the common issues.
2008-2010 6.4 International Powerstroke, This is the motor that ended Fords long partnership with International. Take all the problems with the 6.0 add a complex sequential turbo system and Diesel Particulate filtration…….NIGHTMARE. We have one in our fleet and I dread working on it. Complexity for Complexity sake.
2011-today 6.7 Ford Diesel. While this engine fixed many of the problems it still has its issues. From the driver perspective you have to use DEF (AdBlue). Ford put the DEF fill port under the same fuel door right next to the Diesel….Tired driver not paying attention=DEF in fuel. The Urea crystallizes and destroys the ENTIRE fuel system….Lines, pumps, injectors, sensors,….everything must be replaced. Dealer charges $10k to do it and it is NOT covered under warranty. DPF and DEF make the truck more difficult for the consumer. Automatic Regen requires you to drive in a certain pattern. The Truck can go into a mode where you have to drive it at a certain speed for a determined length of time. Not good for the stop and go driver. Run out of DEF and the truck goes into Limp home mode even though its more than capable of running just fine. More to work on, more service needed…For nothing in my opinion. For a little lower NOX emissions. Now the engine does have some cool things. Its whisper quiet at idle…Which is nice at the drive thru. Its got great power in its stock configuration.
From what I understand its the same with the Duramax and the Cummins. The pre 2008 motors are considered to be the best. I don’t work on them enough to know all the little details like with the Fords.
Cars seem to be getting easier, Diesels are getting worse IMHO.
Diesels are getting worse to an extent. I agree with your post as a whole sir. We don’t have very many problems with the new duramax yet. It’s mostly noX sensors, dpf replacements so far. Once in a while an egr cooler but we don’t see many of those.
Now the older models have had injector issues just as the 6.0 powerstroke, and water pumps like to leak. But for the most part I have really been impressed. We have far more problems putting a cam, pushrods and lifters in the 5.3’s than anything. Way more common than diesel problems at our dealer. Or Pistons for excessive oil consumption and cleaning/replacing the pcv system.
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Its good to know GM (Isuzu) has gotten past the issues. Like I said I mostly work on Ford Diesels. The duramax techs I know have always given me crap about how “their” engine was less prone to failure. I was mostly just complaining about DPF’s and all the post 07 NOX stuff.
Also please understand this is the opinion of a guy who spends all day tracking down tiny leaks in High pressure oil systems that cripple 6.0s while almost never having to touch the 7.3s. I’m a bit jaded
[quote=”Bsosborne1″ post=155280]Its good to know GM (Isuzu) has gotten past the issues. Like I said I mostly work on Ford Diesels. The duramax techs I know have always given me crap about how “their” engine was less prone to failure. I was mostly just complaining about DPF’s and all the post 07 NOX stuff.
Also please understand this is the opinion of a guy who spends all day tracking down tiny leaks in High pressure oil systems that cripple 6.0s while almost never having to touch the 7.3s. I’m a bit jaded[/quote]
No Ford diesel will ever be as robust and reliable as the harvester 7.3.
The Duramax has gotten better, we are past that nasty fuel injector issue.
Cummins still retains the upperhand.
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