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To be fair to VW, they haven’t been the only ones to get caught over this issue. In the late 90s several manufacturers of big rig diesels were found to be circumventing emissions regulations, and, around the same time, Cadillac was discovered cheating as well.
I think a lot of what we’re seeing is the result of modern corporate culture, where the boardroom believes anything goes as long as you don’t get caught. And I also think we’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg at the moment. Regulators in North America and Europe are going to be looking at other manufacturers as well. It’ll be interesting to see how much skullduggery is unearthed.
Part of the problem is the technical bind the manufacturers have been placed in by well-intentioned regulations covering the separate issues of emissions and fuel economy. There’s a starry-eyed notion held by the general public that low emissions and high fuel economy go hand-in-hand. The reality is that they often don’t, and gains made in one realm often cause problems in the other, and things become even more complicated if you’re trying to reconcile low emissions and high fuel economy with a family of engines with good performance and driving characteristics. We saw this in the late 70s when, almost overnight, we suddenly demanded that engines become clean-burning as well as efficient, and the result, provided by the technology of the time, was cantankerous dogs of cars with emasculated engines that were sad caricatures of their former selves.
The precision and processing power of digitized vehicle management has improved the situation greatly, but I think we’re running into the limits of what the technology can do for us. You can only fine-tune the laws of chemistry and physics so far, you can’t overcome the limits of the laws themselves.
I do think your wrong about car going away completely, I think they will just be regulated out of large cities, and maybe some of the more liberal states. There are still places were there are 400 miles between cities, and electric car will be hard pressed to make it reliably, and the cities are too small to be worth building public transportation.
Eric, this was a great summary of the issue.
My wife loves VWs, We have had a VW for over 30 years. When we got the 2009 Jetta, we were considering the TDI, but working through the cost difference vs. the savings, it really didn’t make sense at the time. So, thankfully I have the 2.5L gas that seems to be working well, but I wonder if this is going to impact the value of all VWs. BTW Eric, good thing you don’t see a lot of VWs, I have a drawer full of special tools I have needed for various issues on VWs.
Given my real life job is software engineering, this whole thing interests me. I’m left to wonder how far down the knowledge that this was going on went. Did the engineers doing the coding know what they were doing? Was it the architects that schemed this up? Was this in house or outsourced? I’m actually surprised that has not come up a lot before given the CAFE standards for emissions. The analysis of this is going to be very interesting.
The auto industry is not the only industry this happens in. I know of a person who lost their job because they refused to write software to fake a test pass. I wonder what I would do in the same situation (not much fun to try to get a software engineering job if you are over 50).
I wonder how much of a boost this may end up giving electric cars.
VW and analysts scampered to say ‘No, don’t sell your TDI! Don’t do it! Wait! Wait and see! We’ll fix it!”
Well, here are my thoughts on that.
1) Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
2) The only ‘fix’ for this is to place a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (AddBlue or derivative) system to the car.
( http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/ ) That’s not gonna work. 8k for a urea system… that was never meant to run on the Jetta? Like THAT’LL work out well.3) Any fix will result in loss of power, torque, and mileage. Any fix will result in the increased operating temperature of the engine. This will cause additional wear and tear and a commensurate reduction in operational lifespan.
They don’t want you to sell because the money has always been made not on the sale of the car, but the parts and service. They want you to keep the car so you can pay them money to keep it on the road.
Already dealerships are denying anyone seeking to use a TDI as a trade-in. Try it. Try and use AutoTrader to get a value of a TDI V-dub. Can’t do it. It’s been removed entirely. If they do agree to take it, then they offer a mere pittance.
What about a buyback? Well, THAT isn’t going to happen for at least three years. During that time, your car will grow older. It will put wear on parts. It’ll have higher miles on the clock. They might buy it back, but it’ll be at FMV in three years.. and we’ve already seen that the TDI’s have taken a serious gut-punch in the resale value department. So, don’t expect much when they finally get around to buying it back in a few years. Best hope you don’t owe more on the car than they’re willing to give you, or you’re doubly stuck.
I’d get rid of them. each and every one. If you’ve got it and CAN.. get rid of it. There’s no winning this one.
I’d suggest every affected TDI owner do the same.-Hinoki
Just wait. Once they start exposing the other manufacturers cooked the numbers.
They were warned by Bosch, they were warned by their own people and they continued to do it. The people who made the decisions to carry on breaking the law will get their golden parachutes and a legal slap on the wrist as the companies and the workers are flushed down the toilet as a sacrifice to the temple of greed. If it get’s to the point where the company has to be bailed out by a government, those who had no involvement whatsoever and their children will get to pay the tab for a few rich, likely white and likely men, making the decision to bend the rules to suit their needs.
The conclusion of this whole debacle and the next ones that will happen is simply that the internal combustion engine is at the limit of it’s abilities. As far as emissions and economy are considered. Unless people are willing to go back to driving cars that have no accessories and little concern for passenger comfort.
VW just flat out refused to run the adblue additive which really does work well. The lean Nox trap only works when running crap MPG’s. Other manufacturers using the Lean nox trap will either run crappy or get caught out too.
VW will have problems at home with the Euro 6 standard introduced in september 2014 too.
[quote=”plg12001″ post=147673]I do think your wrong about car going away completely, I think they will just be regulated out of large cities, and maybe some of the more liberal states. There are still places were there are 400 miles between cities, and electric car will be hard pressed to make it reliably, and the cities are too small to be worth building public transportation.[/quote]
That’s not exactly what I meant. The song I referred to was about outlawing ‘motors’ being outlawed, which I interpret as laws against the internal combustion engine. I know a motor is actually an electric device BTW.
I don’t think cars will go away so much as the internal combustion engine will. I think this latest VW scandal illustrates that we’ve gone about as far as we can with the internal combustion engine. Physics just won’t allow us to have it all. You can’t burn something and not get toxic stuff out the other end. You can minimize it by making it more efficient, but it will never go away. Therefore the only logical step is to eliminate internal combustion engines if we really want to combat emissions. I think this latest VW scandal will be leveraged to impose more strict emission laws that will rob power and eventually phase out the internal combustion engine. I’m not saying this will happen overnight, but I’m curious to see what happens over the next 20 years with vehicles and emissions.
What really burns my biscuits, and this will probably be a future ETCG1 video, is that vehicle emissions aren’t the worst polluters. It’s really the beaf industry and power companies that are still burning coal. Industry as a whole is a big polluter. Ultimately I think it’s our consumptive lifestyle that’s at fault. If you look at the energy your smart phone actually uses, it ends up consuming as much energy as a refrigerator. At least that’s what I heard. With more people in the world becoming more dependent on such things, there has to be a point where the resources don’t match demand. That’s when things will get interesting.
I really should make a video about this.
Fact is diesel’s emissions are carcinogenic, a real threat to human health and air quality, they need to be controlled. Modern petrol modern engines are relatively clean, it’s mostly CO2 which is perfectly safe plant food, and the only scientific link to global warming geologically is when the earth is warm in the first place. CO2 levels follow temperature historically, Temperatures do not follow CO2 levels. Lets face it we cannot control the undersea volcanic activity that produces 50% of the world CO2 levels anyway. 1 big volcanic eruption will undo everything we are trying to do about man made pollution for half a century at least. The earth’s climate has changed vastly more than anything we could do by itself. We need to stop being high and mighty and respect our insignificance in the grand scheme of the climate and mother nature. which makes me wonder why governments especially in europe are totally obsessed with CO2 more than other emissions.
I don’t see a problem with say a natural gas power stations unless the supply runs out ( also a nice propane by product which I run my car on ) . Nuclear would be nice but the waste problem is well documented. Clean coal might run into similar problems to diesel particulate filters.
I think electric cars are a total non starter for the mainstream. I highly doubt there is good enough power grids, Enough power plants, Solar has a long way to go as does the battery technology ( that doesn’t involve huge tanks of acids).
[quote=”Hinoki” post=147706]VW and analysts scampered to say ‘No, don’t sell your TDI! Don’t do it! Wait! Wait and see! We’ll fix it!”
Well, here are my thoughts on that.
1) Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
2) The only ‘fix’ for this is to place a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (AddBlue or derivative) system to the car.
( http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/ ) That’s not gonna work. 8k for a urea system… that was never meant to run on the Jetta? Like THAT’LL work out well.-Hinoki[/quote]
I was under the impression that the newest VW diesels used urea injection. While the VW website didn’t actually admit to it in so many words, I noticed some weird things while using using their “build your own” feature. When the TDI was selected, the spare tire was automatically deleted and replaced by a “tire inflator kit”, and the cargo volume for diesel VWs was rated as being slightly less than their gasoline models.
Reading between the lines, I understood this to mean that a urea tank would occupy the space formerly used by the spare tire, and that the tank’s shape protruded into the luggage compartment slightly. This was a few months ago and I might be confusing these results with another manufacturer’s diesel model, but there aren’t that many diesels available in North America.
After working for auto dealers and being in direct contact with the manufactures the corruption is nothing new….. I bet GM is in a cold sweat….yes they do this for gas powered vehicles also.
The last part of the video was very good and needs to be understood what is going on. I’m thankful to “EricTheCarGuy” being a producer of media of bringing this to the attention of his viewers.EricTheCarGuy wrote: Ultimately I think it’s our consumptive lifestyle that’s at fault.
You got that right.
EricTheCarGuy wrote: I really should make a video about this.
Please produce the video!!!
What I find amazing is that a company with the resources available to VAG couldn’t make a clean engine without resorting to deception. It is a sad endorsement od the state of the motor industry in general and Volkswagen in particular. Very sad state if affairs indeed.
40 years in one of the world’s largest corporations, I’ve done.
Every one of us knows that deceit is the norm and we all cringe when we hear “business ethics”.
I was a bit surprised by “Das Autogate”. Fudge factors, hidden routines, and surreptitious scripts in software sound like the basis of a conspiracy theory. But, there is hard proof and admission that the DMCA-protected, little black box committed fraud for half a million vehicles. And, at least one person must have thoroughly tested the software so it could avoid detection. I don’t understand the motivation behind it – why risk your name, brand, and reputation for the risk-to-reward?
[quote=”Mike153624″ post=148006]What I find amazing is that a company with the resources available to VAG couldn’t make a clean engine without resorting to deception.[/quote]
The diesel group had a reputation for being on the leading edge for some time. I wondered if team made the decision to insert the routine while they worked on a solution and/or found a feasible innovation for the long term. Then, no improvements were found and it spiraled over the years. There’s a lot of pressure and expectations when you’re on the bleeding edge, like the Henderick von Schon scandal.
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=147768]If you look at the energy your smart phone actually uses, it ends up consuming as much energy as a refrigerator. At least that’s what I heard.[/quote]
The infrastructure load is equivalent to 2 newer refrigerators, or the old one in the garage that keeps your beer cold (source).
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