Fix rough idling, which gets worse with AC ON.

[neoscorp]

Hi Folks,

I have been searching for a while to diagnose and fix up my Ford Ikon with Endura-E 1.3L Petrol Engine, 5-Gear manual (2002 Model, India). Popularly, its known as Ford Bantam in rest of the world. She had a series of problems last year and a major one was a coolant leak and Engine over heating. I really enjoy videos posted by EricTheCarGuy and couple of other experts. I am sharing my journey so far and hope your suggestions will help it make better.

INCIDENT-1
Our car was due for servicing and my brother, who has been living abroad had hands on for doing general servicing. He insisted that we should change the Engine oil ourselves. Headed for shopping and bought following things :

a) 3-Ton Hydraulic Jack
b) Two jack stands
c) Tool set
d) 10W40 Synthetic Engine Oil
e) STP Engine Decarb liquid (Used with Engine Oil)
f) Brake pad set
g) Brake disc set
h) Plastic trays (For draining oil/fluids)
i) Oil filter

First, we put the STP Engine Decarb liquid in to Engine oil inlet port. Allowed the car to warm up and drained the oil. Removed the oil filter and drained the balance Engine oil. Installed new oil filter and filled her fresh Engine oil.

Removed old brake discs and pads at the front. Replaced them with new set of discs and pads. However during the process of installing brake pads we noticed that some fluid overflowed from a small tank ( learnt that its the Brake fluid reservoir). Ignored the leak and went ahead with the replacement of pads.

Took it for a test drive and she felt smooth but the braking bite remained weak as it was earlier. It struck to me that if the braking scheme is based on hydraulic mechanism then it should be closed one without any leakages. After searching for Engine bay pictures I realized that the brake fluid reservoir should have a cap!. This cap was missing since long time and I thought it was normal. I knew nothing about the auto-mechanics and the underlying principles. Bought an after market cap and fixed it. Viola! The brake biting improved. However I wondered how come the Ford authorized service men ignored the fact that the brake fluid reservoir cap was missing.

Was happy that the car was in a better condition with improved braking performance and running smooth with synthetic oil.

INCIDENT-2:

After a week I took her out for a long drive. In the midst of traffic jam I didn’t notice the temperature gauge for quite a while until a passing by lady on her two-wheeler pointed that some green liquid is leaking out of the vehicle. As I became conscious of the situation I could smell something. Stopped the car and opened the bonnet. To my panic I saw white fumes coming out of the it. Immediately stopped the vehicle and after she cooled down, took her slowly to nearby garage. A coolant hose got detached below the Radiator and this lead to coolant leakage. Loosened hose was fixed and instead of coolant, water was filled temporarily. It was recommended for a thorough electrical check up. Took her to one of the experts. He pointed that the ‘Fan speed control resistor’ has gone bad and was replaced. The demonstration showed that the fan was not switched on in slow-mode. Only after the coolant temperature reached high enough, the fan was triggered to operate in high-speed mode.Not sure of its technical name but understood that it controls the speed of the cooling fan and provides feedback to ECU to switch on the fan in slow/high speed. I mentioned that the combination switch was having a problem: the parking lights were not getting ON. He thoroughly check it and suggested for a replacement. Got it replaced with a used and working piece. Later proper coolant was put instead of water.

After all this happened I felt that the car had several fixes and is in good to go miles ahead.

INCIDENT-3:

The car ran for few kilometres between office to home. I was glad that it was running pretty smooth. However the happiness didn’t last for long. After a week or so got out with family for a long drive. This time I was carefully paying attention to the temperature gauge. To my surprise the needle was bending faster towards ‘HOT’ side. In a few minutes I could sense that something is wrong. Stopped the car and allowed it to cool down. Drove some distance and stopped her for a while to cool down. Did this till we reached the destination. The car was parked for few hours. Later we started back to return home. Had to repeat same exercise of stopping her to cool down and driving little by little till we reached half way through. I gave it up and asked my family to take taxi and leave. Called up nearby Ford service centre. None responded as it was Sunday. Enquired if there was a nearby garage and slowly drove her there and left it to rest till tomorrow.

Next day went to garage and explained to the mechanic that the car was over heating in no time. He suspected thermostat and the complete cooling circuit. However I explained that the thermistor was replaced. I also showed him that the upper radiator hose was bulging and it felt as if coolant was gushing inside with bubbles. Immediately he said that the head gasket has gone bad and needs replacement. I agreed, ignorant of the task ahead. Witnessed the complete process of Engine head removal. The head was sent for trimming and gaskets were ordered. I was told that the valves have gone bad and replacement valves were provided (not sure if they were new or used ones though). New thermostat was also bought. After installing the trimmed head and rest of the sensors, tappets were adjusted using a feeler gauge. The Engine was started and testing for air intake. Later the car was sent for washing. I was told that after running her for a week re-tuning/fine tuning is needed. Did complete payment to the mechanic and was excited to drive her back to home. Started the car I couldn’t believe that the rhythm and feel has completely changed. She has become noisy, erratic, and unpredictable. Response to throttle was not linear, it was like a surge and sudden reaction. Vibrations were so high and I could feel it inside the cabin never like before. Steering was providing direct feedback of the vibrations. She has become totally something else, a complete stranger indeed. I was sad as I drove her back to home. I could recollect the moments when people told me to sell her off and but a new car. Somehow I felt there was a connection between us and never thought of letting her go.

INCIDENT-4:

It was only few days the she came home. Had to attend a friend’s wedding about 50 km from home. Decided to take her for long drive so that enough miles are put on the odometer before taker her for fine tuning. While coming back to home I switched on the AC. Then I realised couple of times that the car was stalling in low gears with AC ON. Narrowly missed hitting a bike and an auto. I started discovering the new aspects of the stranger. Meanwhile the mechanic called me to inform that he left the garage. I was hesitant to take her out for a ride and the fine tuning thing was delayed. Spoke to near by Ford service centre and explained the past and present condition. Their response was not positive. Instead the service manager suggested to sell it off or exchange it for a new car. Thought of getting a better mechanic near by so that its accessible. After enquiring got to know a good mechanic. Spoke to him and took her in the weekend. After listening to the whole story he agreed to fix the car. Couple of coolant hoses were replaced with new ones, tappet setting was redone and checked, Engine vibration levels came down. It sounded better but not like when she was normal.

PRESENT CONDITION:

The car idles a bit rough and the tail pipe spits the exhaust gases in a sort of erratic or odd rhythms. With ‘AC’ ON the Engine almost stalls but breathes quickly and continues to live but idling become even more rough. It almost loses its breath while taking steep ascents. Power delivery is not smooth and is less. Has been using the car like this for almost a year.

Read on Internet about rough idling, which in turn leads to multitude of causes like bad IAC valve, vacuum leaks, improper exhaust gas recirculation, bad timing and what not. Recently bought a OBD II scanner and it reports no ECU stored faults. Though the ‘Test results’ showed couple of ‘FAILS’ there is no access to decode the details like TID $40 CID $12 FAIL, TID $4a CID $30 FAIL and TID $4b CID $30 FAIL. The same is shared for your feedback and suggestions. Checked resistance of IAC valve and cleaned it up but didn’t help much except that the power delivery / Throttle response has improved slightly.

The logged data during idling has been plotted and shared for your feedback. First plot shows the idling without AC initially and later with AC ON. The second one is a clipped version of the first prior to AC ON for better visibility and interpretation.

” />OBD data plot-1
” />OBD data plot-2

Thanks,
Neo

Attachments:

• TorquePRO-OBD.png
• OBD-TorquePlot-Init-Idle.png

Topic

[college man]

See if this helps.

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-performance-issues

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-idle-problems

[neoscorp]

Thanks for your suggestions. I am going through them and checking whatever is possible from my side with limited tools I have.
However I was wondering if the OBD-II data plots can give some clues!
Experts may please throw some light based on the data.

Cheers,
Neo

[neoscorp]

Hi Folks,

Test results from Torque App shows following tests as FAIL.
Need information for decoding the message:

1. TID $41 CID $12 FAIL
2. TID $4a CID $30 FAIL
3. TID $4b CID $30 FAIL

Failed to get any document on Internet to help decode the tests.
The car is Ford Ikon, 1.3L Endura-E Engine, Petrol, 5-Gear manual (known as Ford Bantam in rest of the world).

Cheers,
Neo

[Keith Castle]

Jesus dude, those data plots look awful. There’s some info missing from the charts that would make some things clearer, but I think I get the idea. I will come out and admit I’m from America, so I have never seen or heard of your car before, BUT all cars work the same way so basic engine theory should still apply. I see two possibles:

1: damaged or incorrectly installed valve(s). This would cause the rough running you describe, but isn’t reflected in the data so well. Have a shop run a compression check. Low or uneven numbers on one or more cylinders will point to this as a possible cause.

2: improperly installed timing belt/chain. This will cause rough running too, and is an easy mistake to make. From what I can see in your data, this seems most likely. To put it simply, the cam and crankshaft will not be aligned correctly. The engine *can* run this way, but the computer has to work very hard to compensate. Your ignition timing seems to show the computer “searching” for the correct pattern to use, failing, and trying again. Up down up down up down… The other plots do this too. Up and down when the correct answer is in the middle, but it can’t use the middle because the cam isn’t where it should be. “Like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn’t there.”

A third possible is that a sensor or vacuum hose failed or isn’t connected properly, but an obd2 check would show this pretty quickly.

I hope this helps, and I wish you luck my friend!

[Keith Castle]

SorSorry to double post. Just found this on Wikipedia about the 1.3 endura/kent engine.

“Another reason is the large tappet clearance on the exhaust valve. This could of course be reduced to lower the noise level but the engine would then suffer from a rough idle and usually stalled.”

Another valve adjustment may be all it needs, but don’t hope too greatly.

[neoscorp]

Hi,

Thanks for your response. I have been waiting to carryout compression check and check for vacuum leaks too.
Here in India, access to tools is limited and mostly we need to order on ebay or similar sites. Most of the local garages also do not have the needed equipment.
However I shall try to carry out vacuum leak check using smoke (as I hear slight hissing sound near the Engine bay). Compression test may take time as I need to buy the gauge and learn to do the test!

However let me know if you need any thing more from OBD scanner data. I tried to used FORScan instead of Torque App, but the application quits saying that the EML327 adapter is a cloned version and is not a fully compatible one 🙂

Thanks again for your feedback!

Cheers,
Neo

[Rob]

I think you can rent a timing strob light from a lot of autopart stores and you could check the timing on it,, another think is command is vacuum leaks,,, you are basically taking the whole top part of the engine off to do the head gasket..
I personalty dont recommend people using engine oil flushes… because anything that was in your engine like little pieces of stuff that was stuck in your engine will suddenly get loose and can cause problems… there has been a lot of people that have used engine flushes and like 2 weeks latter are getting major engine problems.. I not talking about like sea foam or other stuff like that but Im talking about full engine oil flushes…
you can see what other people thoughts are but thats my thoughts and what I have researched..
also brake fluid collects a lot of air and will go bad very quickly… I would do a brake beading to clear that up… also brake fluid will remove paint too..
also I just want to point out if you think your car is over heating is to turn on your heater full blast… some people dont know you have a heater core that is like a small radiator in your dash board and it will help cool your engine down… just an FYUI

[neoscorp]

Hi Folks,

Couple of testing equipment is being ordered and shall take a month or two for arrival :-).
Mean while as mentioned initially in the post I’ve cleaned up the IAC valve and throttle response felt slightly improved.

Following are the observations made recently:

1. Idling has improved a bit and noticeably worsening of idle with AC ON doesn’t occur during warm up 🙂
2. Once the engine coolant temperature rises to about 100 to 105 degree Celsius (°C), when AC is switched ON the rough idling appears.

Any clues about the causes for this sort of symptom ?

What really changes once the Engine has warmed up, which can cause rough idling with AC ON. I can see the vacuum levels in Torque App falling and rising from 10 inHg to 17.8 inHg and back, while RPM fluctuates between 400 and 1200.
When AC is switched OFF, idling becomes fine.

Cheers,
Neo

[neoscorp]

Hi Folks,

Today heard a chirping sound near the Engine. Lifted the car for clarity and found that the sound to be prominent near the alternator.
Instantly checked if alternator could cause rough idling with AC ON. Bang!. Checked battery voltage and following is the summary for your suggestion:

1. Initial batter voltage : 13.27V (Ideally should be 12.6V) !
2. Engine ON (All electrical OFF) : The battery voltage starts with 14.62V and goes up to 18V 🙁 . ECU keeps pulling it down to 14.72 when it reaches 18V and this keeps recurring)
3. With only blower ON : It bounces up and down between 14V to 16V
4. With AC ON: The battery voltage drops down to 12.80V and its clear that the ECU raises the RPM to raise this voltage to 13.4. Again it falls down to 12.8V and RPM rises to keep it up to 13.4. This is how the rough idling surfaces.

Clearly theres a chirping sound (it has a rhythm too) and the ECU struggles to keep the voltage to 13.4V, which keeps dropping to 12.8V with AC ON.
Before nailing down the Alternator, should I check for something else ?

Cheers,
Neo

[Author]

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