- This topic has 57 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 6 months ago by
.
-
Topic
-
Hi gang,
Wifes trusty 94 prizm has a new issue.
The heater output used to be quite good after the car hit op temp.
Now its only a tad warmer than ambient.The cable to the valve appears functional. (It moves the lever, and is hooked up correctly)
The valve (the part i can see without taking it apart) appears fine
Both hoses to the heater core are warm/hot, with the top one being a tad warmer.2 issues. Well 3,
The radiator has begun leaking where the aluminum meets the plastic on the top. But its full.
Coolaint overflow tank was empty but it was that way for years and car never overheated and heater was fine
Due to the rad leaking i left the rad cap loose to try and reduce losses.Currently, the overflow tank, which was filled to “full” 2 weeks ago has lost more than half, he is a little above the low line now.
When i did fill the system i put about a cup of coolaint before radiator was full.
On the other hand, my civic same size motor, was far lower on coolaint, probably a quart to fill the radiator and then the entire overflow tank, and his heat was never bad, just a bit worse than usual and hes great now — i used tap water in both, am i going to hell?
Sadly my ebay radiator for the civic is leaking less than 3 years after installation… so thats why it was 45 dollars…..
-
Replies
-
[quote=”dosmastr” post=78163]”I would start over with a new radiator,T-stat,
hoses,cap and flush of the cooling system. Refill with new coolant and
bleed the system.”You sir, are a more well-to-do man than I! (well what do I expect you did goto college.)
I’ll fix the broken stuff, the rest waits til it breaks![/quote]
My old man used to say
“Fix it now, or pay double to fix it later”
If you dink around and do not fix a cooling system issue you could be setting your self for paying out BIG bucks. Over heat a late model engine and you could easily be looking at a cylinder head,headset and radiator/t-sat/cap. There is a huge reason why the cooling system is pressurised and loosening the cap now makes your engine MUCH more likely to overheat as boiling is reduced at higher pressures.
Pure Water: 0 C / 32 F – 100 C / 212 F
50/50 mix of C2H6O2/Water: -37 C / -35 F – 106 C / 223 F
70/30 mix of C2H6O2/Water: -55 C / -67 F – 113 C / 235 F
The temperature of the coolant can sometimes reach 250 to 275 F (121 to 135 C). Even with ethylene glycol added, these temperatures would boil the coolant, so something additional must be done to raise its boiling point.
The cooling system uses pressure to further raise the boiling point of the coolant. Just as the boiling temperature of water is higher in a pressure cooker, the boiling temperature of coolant is higher if you pressurize the system. Most cars have a pressure limit of 14 to 15 pounds per square inch (psi), which raises the boiling point another 45 F (25 C) so the coolant can withstand the high temperatures.With the cap off and adding water to replace what is leaking your boiling point is likely so low it could occur BEFORE your fans come on.
Yeah, spending money to fix cars sucks, but unless you have Scotty on standby to beam you where you need to go, it has to be done. Bite the bullet, buy a radiator, T-stat and cap (heck the stat and cap are likely under $20 and if they are too stressed by the malfunctioning cooling system could cost you up to a thousand in engine damage.
For an example, my wife’s friend bought a used Neon with a bad PCM. The PCM fan driver was burned out so he decided to wire in a toggle switch instead of having me replace the PCM. Worked for a week until he forgot to turn on the fans. So to save $150.00 for a PCM (which I was gonna install for free) he ended up spending $800.00 for a PCM, Cylinder head, head set, timing belt and water pump (which I did NOT install for free).
BTW: I replace my cap and T-stat once a year, yeah it is overkill, but both parts cost about $20 and my T-stat is super easy to get to. It allows me to look over the cooling system and gives me the piece of mind that those 2 cheap parts won’t be costing me real money. I figure with all the work my truck does it def. deserves $20 annually spent on it.
I think you guys are misunderstanding me.
I do have a tendency to be unclear.Any perception that I am trying to repair NOTHING is incorrect.
Tom you appeared to initially be claiming the cap being loose was the problem, I was merely explaining that this was not the initial cause of the issue.
All I was saying was that in reply to “I would start over with a new… …,T-stat,
hoses,cap”
the hoses are fine,
the tstat also appears fine,
Rad cap also appears to be fine
therefor replacing them at this point (when there is an obvious defect which fixing my alleviate ALL issues) appeared to be a waste of money — unless all the issues aren’t solved by replacing the rad and bleeding it.I don’t deny that failures in any of those components is more than just a bad day… I guess I’m just of the mindset that any of those failures will give warnings that can be heeded to avoid the costly repair.
Then again… this is the wife’s car…lolEverything beyond that I was merely asking questions to learn more, or clarifying appeared to be misunderstandings about exactly what I had going on.
If any of that came off as argumentative I ask that you understand nothing could be further from the truth.With that being said I would like to offer a little push back to Tomh though:
“If the thermostat is stuck full closed, will the car not warm up quickly?”
Yes, and likely overheat too right? But what it does is sits at op temp once its warm, just like every other 1.6L corolla motor I’ve had (I’ve had 4 of them, 3 cars and replaced the motor in current one)“Stuck part open”, well I suppose you got me on that one, I’ll check it out, but the guy who had the motor before me looked to have been pretty good with reg shed maint.
Do the auto parts stores have a thing to test the rad cap?
Today I learned that a tiny amount of air in one system can make a boatload of difference while a similar car may seem fine while being in far worse shape regarding air in the cooling system.
Questions: is the rad filler neck typically the highest point in the system? I definitely could see the need for the funnel if not. Anyone know if a 1.6L mid 90’s corolla motor has a bleeder valve? I didn’t immediately see one.
Raistian — his temp gauge didn’t alert him he was cooking his motor?
Distilled water vs tap a huge deal? I’ve heard so long as the system doesn’t get compromised (as mine HAS) tap water doesn’t matter cause the impurities only form deposits when air is present. I’ve heard that but I’m not saying I believe it yet.I’m not just adding water I have antifreeze too, but it seems to leak to a point and then no more even with the cap on tight, guess its got air down to the lowest leak and just blows that out…and sucks it back in once cool….
Both times (replaced the rad in my car, and now i’ll have to do my wifes) its been where the aluminium meets the plastic that the leak begins… why the hell can’t I just pay 25% more for 10% additional aluminium for a 100% aluminium unit! Sheesh! Its enough to make me want to try and weld together something. (I would fail, I know)
one last question:
other than the ability to exchange locally how is an advanced auto rad going to be better than an ebay one if the both has a lifetime warranty? I’m probably going to buy the advance one just for peace of mind, but I’d appreciate some additional pushes over the 2X cost hump.Oh one more stupid question. coolant expands as heated yes? why is making sure the car warms enough to kick on the fan important? I would think when it cools off after being at op temp, and sure there was no more air would be the time to be darn sure it was full. OR is it more along the lines of running the car the long ensures all the air is out and that it heats up is secondary?
The radiator neck is NOT always the highest spot in the cooling system. Sometimes it is in the engine, sometimes it is in the heater core. Engineers have done lots of tinkering with the shapes of our cars to meet fuel efficiency standards, and often times, that means lowering the hood line, which results in less room to put the radiator, and the top of the radiator being closer to the ground, which results in a cooling system that is a bit less willing to give up all the air it holds.
The suggestion to replace the radiator cap, and thermostat now is more to save from draining the coolant to deal with it later. Regardless of where, when, or why the problem started, running the engine with the radiator cap loose IS a problem. That, by it’s self, will cause overheating, because the coolant will boil at a much lower temperature when it is at atmospheric pressure than it would at 18 PSI. That move alone can keep your heat from working, and could cause your engine to overheat, possibly causing a blown head gasket, or even a warped, or cracked cylinder head.
We suggested replacing the thermostat and cap because they have been in a malfunctioning system for a period of time, and there is concern that they have been stressed and if not failing right now, may well fail very soon. Of course, your finances, and judgement dictate what you will do. If it were me, I would go ahead and replace those now. Radiator hoses, it is a bit easier in my opinion, to judge what condition they are in by squeezing them and paying close attention to how they feel. I wouldn’t be tempted to replace them unless they felt like they were compromised.
For what it is worth, I had a radiator cap take a crap on me last spring, my warning was when I was driving up a dirt mountain road, and the temp gauge suddenly, as I was actually looking at it, shot from it’s normal spot to full hot in one movement. I pulled over, shut down, cooled off, refilled, and got it home. Total cost . . . .$1600. Warped head, blown gasket, new thermostat, new radiator, new cap, hoses. They don’t always give a big warning.
You can usually borrow a pressure tester from a parts store to test both the cooling system and the cap.
As for Ebay verses parts store. I have bought many things from Ebay. I would not buy my radiator there. It may say lifetime warranty, but that warranty is only as good as the person you buy from, and when the email you send 6 months from now about your replacement never gets a response, or bounces, you are stuck buying a new one out of pocket. Advance Auto will be there in 6 months, and will honor their warranty. Well worth the extra money in my book.
Running the engine until the fan cycles on (I usually run for two full cycles of the fan) ensures that you have heated the engine up enough to fully open the thermostat, so that any air trapped behind it will get through. If the thermostat doesn’t open, then air trapped in the passages on the other side of it could remain there, and the bleeding job would then be incomplete, heat may not work, car may still over heat because of poor coolant flow. Air caught in small passages can do strange things, including completely block the flow of coolant.
What he said.
The only thing I would add is that I don’t really bother testing caps any more. Any time we do any cooling system repairs here in the shop we factor in a new cap. They are uber cheap (usually 7 bucks or so) and uber easy to change.
As for a T-stat the only way to test it is to pull it and dip it in a pan of boiling water with a hard candy thermometer and see exactly what temp it opens. Heck if I am pulling one, I am replacing it.
As for internet parts, depends on the part, availability and cost. We have a Mercury Villager in the bay now for a front heater core. We bought one from Rock Auto because there are no aftermarket ones available and one from Ford is almost $300.00. The one at Rock Auto is a Motorcraft one, but is clearancing at $100.00 so the owner wanted to go with getting one from them. Aftermarket radiators are always of a inferior quality than OEM, but buying a radiator from the dealer is quite expensive so you have to play the balance game. I have used RadPro many times, they have good quality radiators (among other HVAC parts) for a decent price and if you are near a distributor they deliver. http://roppelrad.com/index.html
heat it up to let the thromostat open…. derp…I’m having a derp moment….
Now that you mention it… yeah I really would prefer to pay now rather than drain again later.
Its funny, for years (before I started working on the car myself) I brought the car to the mechanic early — thinking if part A failed it could take a bunch of other stuff with it. And it never happened… and he made fun of me for it.. and now that I’ve gotten out of the mindset, I get a failure that actually is of that nature (cooling system fault = more possibly cooling system parts being damaged) fun. lol.
air in passages of car, same as air in blood of human, EMBOLISM!
I’ll check out rad pro… I think we’ve learned that if there is a fault that has the car overheating, the turn the heater to full blast trick… won’t help in this case lol.
I bet in this car the heater core is the highest point, the hoses are level with the valve cover, I’ll be adding a giant yellow funnel to my tool chest I guess.
My honda was wierd when I changed out the rad (which was an ebay one…which is now minimally leaking out the port that would be for the auto trans fluid cooler… had I used that on an auto trans I think I’d really be paying for it sooner or later)…But when I went to drain the system, the rad drained but the block stayed almost completely full.
Rad pro huh, I’ll check em out.
Also of anecdotal interest, looks like the 1.6L corolla motor is paired with a much larger (like 40% larger) rad than my 1.6L civic. both use about the same amount of fuel per mile (so it isn’t one is better at making gas turn into heat rather than turn into….go…. lol)Speaking of no warning catastrophic failures, I had an oil filter pop off as I was driving through a bouncy yard. (long story…) car drove a half mile down the road, then stalled. (should’ve checked it at this point I know…)said huh… maybe I spilled oil and it went into a plug?? Started it up again to see what happens — it turned over and fired just as normal…. ok maybe it just had to burn some oil out of the plug connection…. drove another quarter mile, then needed more and more gas pedal to keep moving, then stalled again. pulled over and just after I stopped smoke billowed out from under the hood.
The oil light never came on. (if it had I would’ve been like OK WAIT A SEC!) Motor still ran once we got oil in there again, but had piston slap (and who knows what else I couldn’t hear), and though my Father in law(car guy) and his mechanic both said “run it and see what happens, might get another year or more out of it” That… was not acceptable to my lady (can’t really blame her)
Thank you for your patience and the information, both are appreciated.
Tom, with regard to your sig. I had to replace a wheel/lug stud once… after hitting it with a 16oz hammer for 10min my father in law grabbed a huge one and hit it once “There ya go!” LOL
Well according the other forums ready-rad (sold by advanced) are not very good… of course if you sell 10k of them and 1% fail thats alot of people b*tchin
advance also sells “tough one” brand.. but I wonder if its just readyrad rebranded because its one listing “readyrad or tough one” for $97.
see what I can see on rockauto (I did email readyrad already)
No problem. Our goal is to help you save cash in the long run.
Like Ron always says you have to be willing to tell people what they need to hear not what they want to hear.
I love how on summit I found 2 “Direct fit”
Core Height (in) 13.750 in. 13.750 in.
[b]Core Thickness (in) 1.000 in. 1.250 in.
Core Width (in) 27.500 in. 27.062 in.[/b]
Fan Included No No
Inlet Location Center upper Center driver sideI understand its got some wiggle room but I think when most laypeople say direct fit, they mean its the exact same size, shape, etc of the OE part.
just for anoyone else who finds this. Advance auto WILL price match summitracing.com but do it thorugh the advance website not the manager at the store. manager won’t match a deal thats too good, the reps from advance corporate on the other hand, will. 69 bucks later!
[quote=”dosmastr” post=78433]just for anoyone else who finds this. Advance auto WILL price match summitracing.com but do it thorugh the advance website not the manager at the store. manager won’t match a deal thats too good, the reps from advance corporate on the other hand, will. 69 bucks later![/quote]
Cool, nice find.
I actually have a readyrad from Autozone in my Accord. I was NOT terribly happy with the apparent quality of the piece, but I needed a radiator ASAP, and an OEM piece wasn’t an option price wise at the time. I’ve had it for near a year and a half now, so far, no problem, but I am prepared to replace it with an OEM unit at the first sign of trouble.
Back to square one.
Replaced rad and tstat today, bled system.Still minimal heat output from heater
Both the hose going into and out of the heater core are hot.
Bad valve?
Tom, mine said and looked made in China. Its not leaking but eh…. Doesn’t quite fit like OE, imma find it on Amazon and hit up a three star. Did its job though, even at 2500 rpm took like 15 min to warm up enough to kick the fan On
Excellent, now we can diagnose what the problem is.
When you say hot, what do you mean? Can you hold the hoses with your barehands okay, or is it uncomfortable to hold them?
If you can hold them okay, than they are likely not hot enough. Are both the same temperature?
Well they arent top radiator hose hot but i wouldnt grip them like a handshake either, id say leaving my hand on them for more than a couple seconds would be inadvisable
Its been suggested that the… uncertain of its name. But the valve that is attached to the climate ctl switch in the cabin may have failed internally (switch good, cable good, external lever connected to cable good, but actual valve that lets coolant flow bad. ) said go get a 50 cent elbow joint and defeat the valve, if it works we have the culpret, if not the core must be clogged.
But you sound like youre headed a different direction, the engine is at op temp cooling fan kicked on a few min later, but the coolant entering the core is still not carring enough heat (is what it sounds like you are suggesting) what could cause that?
I may be wrong but i think the bottom one is a tiny bit cooler…. which imho suggest a small amount of flow is getting through, being depleted of heat and joining coolant in the return hose…which is being heated (sorta backwards) from the engine.
Meaning the core is clogged, or the valve is minimally opening.The coolant that drained from old rad didnt look too bad, granted its probbaly consists of half new from two weeks ago but there wasnt any sludge or anything… also to my knowledge no stop leak has been used.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.