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    EricTheCarGuy 1EricTheCarGuy

      I have a feeling we’ll be discussing this one for a while. Recalls have been around almost as long as the automobile after all. What are your thoughts?

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    • #595604

        Loved the Fight Club reference. I always thought that the way that manufacturers decide on whether or not they do a recall was based on the way he explains it in the film.
        I like the Toyota recall, wasn’t one of their solutions to just cable tie the floor mats so that they won’t slip and interfere with the pedal box? I had already done this on my Ford Connect which has a rubber foot well (no carpet) so the mat always slips.

        Over here in the UK, Citroen recently had an embarrassing recall. On their C3 Picasso, it was reported that the front passenger could apply the brakes by pressing their feet down in the foot well. I think its because the car is designed as LHD for Europe and the problem arose when they redesigned them for RHD in the UK. Obviously some of the brake pedal links/components have remained on the left side of the car. Someone screwed up badly! :whistle:


          The car companies cannot afford to offer us the highest possible quality, and we buyers cannot afford it either. So the consumer car is built to a cost level, and not a quality level.

          The emergence of the Japanese manufacturers in the 1970s to the early 1990s was as good as it gets for high quality targets, but still with cost in mind.

          That said, I often marvel at my first car (1966 VW Beetle) versus my current car (2003 Accord Coupe I4M5). Progress has been enormous.

          If what I read is correct, GM does deserve a kick in the teeth, as they knew the switch was faulty, used it anyway, then covered up the updates by keep the same part number. But consumers shouldn’t hang 4 pounds of keys on their ignition switches either!!

          The car companies are still a lot better than big pharma who invent new diseases of the young as an untapped market for their products.

          Lorrin BarthLorrin Barth

            I guess this should be titled – “How to do a Recall” because we did one.

            This occurred on a car forum. The administrator of the site was contacted by an attorney from (I think) Puerto Rico whose client’s passenger had been killed in an auto accident. The car did have a flaw we knew about. For some reason I had been on the NHTSA site and knew there was a place there to file a safety complaint. And so it started. When an owner would write the forum with this problem (this was an almost daily occurrence) we would request they file a complaint with NHTSA.

            Eventually, NHTSA assigned an investigator. He took other employment. Time passed. I figured the project was dead but maybe a year later another investigator was assigned. Time passed. NHTSA decided the car needed to be recalled. When NHTSA issues a recall notice the car maker or some other body of people are named the knowledgeable experts. In this case it was us. B) Another forum member and I had figured out the exact mechanism of the problem.

            Then the Japanese maker had to design a repair and produce a repair part. More time passed.

            The Japanese maker issued a recall and gobbled up the US parts inventory, the repair could involve more than one assembly and the car was also sold under two other brands in the country. These brands couldn’t issue the required recall without parts inventory. Even more time passed. I got a recall notice, bought the recall campaign part ($35) and installed it. I think you know why. :dry:

            With some details left out, this is how we did it.

            Dave OlsonDave

              With all of the money and resources the manufacturers have they could do a lot better job building vehicles than they do now. All they are worried about is the almighty dollar/maximizing profits/minimizing cost. Remember the committee designed Aztek? For how much the average price of a vehicle is the quality sucks, we have parts that are engineered to have a shelf life and be just good enough. I would not have most of the gadgets that seem to be required on a car these days (more things to go wrong) I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. method keep it simple stupid.


                Yeah Fight Club is a cool movie.I know nothing about recalls though.Iv’e never owned a new vehicle! HA HA

                Rich BayerRich Bayer

                  I’ve lost a lot of faith in GM the past couple years. Ever since I had a 2004 Colorado that left a really bad taste in my mouth. It wasn’t unreliable, but the build quality was just so putrid… I couldn’t believe what happened to the company I used to be so proud of, the company that I used to work for, the company that I eagerly awaited the next new model and then would lust over them for years… But now? not so much.. I’ve moved on but I still have faith in their powertrain as far as the fact that they do make some very good power. (Had a 2000 Camaro z28 heads and cam car with 440/421 rearwheel)

                  I think some of GM’s past mistakes are going to come back to bite them for a while.. I think 2005-2012 were the very worst years of GM. Their quality took a drastic tumble and they’re going to be playing cleanup for a long time.

                  But anyway.. I found this yesterday and sent it around to a couple people..


                  Rich BayerRich Bayer

                    ^ I JUST threw that out in a response to another GM Recall question the other day too, regarding their Bankruptcy.. Apparently GM is blaming their ignition recall on that and I will again respond with “It’s not the Bankruptcy’s fault your product sucks.”

                    I mean seriously.. I used to be a huge GM fan for most of my life. Now? I’m more of a Ford fan because I like what they’re doing. Their products get me EXCITED and they inspire me to WANT them! I WANT a newer SXT F150 with a 5.0. I WANT to show it off, take a long road trip and enjoy it! it’s an emional experience for us. I feel they have a better product and the mainstream media has been really quiet regarding Ford. If someone drags up the Explorer Recall and expects it to be a valid argument I’d ask them to look at the facts again. THAT recall was mostly regarding Firestone tires. Since then, tire manufacturers have been required to stamp a production date on their tires and the 6 year law was put in effect. If a tire is dated older that 6 years (6 right?) there’s a $500 penalty to sell it and needs to be thrown out. The tires in that recall were subject to ply separation because they were sitting for too long before they were sold and installed.

                    If you want to blame Powerstroke? Ok.. those were a rotten set of engines with pros and cons but definitely had some expensive growing pains. But the German derived 6.0 and 6.4 PS’s are gone. It wasn’t a direct Ford problem and their new ones are really stout. The emissions stuff has really put a hurting on the diesel end of things as we’ve all had to figure out how to make this work.

                    Anyway.. Dodge build quality is supposed to be top of the line now, but it comes at a premium and they are the most expensive domestic brand.

                    I worked with a guy recently who used to say “I won’t buy any imported jap crap.” But he was also an old school guy and to that I would respond “What brand of cell phone do you have?” (His Android Smartphone)

                    I’ve been driving VW’s since 2010 now and I don’t intend to get another GM unless it’s a 1995-2002 F-Body or a C5 Corvette that will sit in the Garage. I don’t mean to make this my personal GM rant… But they dug their own hole with this one. I still like them for a Muscle car, but I can’t afford their new stuff.. and the 5th gen camaro has one of the best resale values… no clue how that happened.. maybe the demand is just still pretty high. I’m in the market for a daily driver now and I had a 1998-2004 Blazer under consideration but I threw it off the list when I figured that I don’t like their 4L60E transmission tuning and I don’t like their torsion bar front end.. The 4.3 engine is pretty solid though.. I’m looking for a 2000-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee now.

                    Lorrin BarthLorrin Barth

                      Am I missing something here? According to the chart GM is the third best make.

                      EricTheCarGuy 1EricTheCarGuy

                        [quote=”barneyb” post=95581]Am I missing something here? According to the chart GM is the third best make.[/quote]

                        It is true that they aren’t the worst, but they also sell more vehicles than anyone else and I’m sure that helps their numbers. My argument is about build quality, not recall rate. So my comments were based more on build quality over recall rate. I was just quoting the original post.


                          i can tell you one of the only reasons i got my 2008 pontiac grand prix was the engine, 3800 Series III in my opinion, the best V6 General motors has EVER made, not the hugest fan of the 4T65E transmission, but i also like the W body platform, its already happened too the 3800 and some day it will happen too the W body platform as well, it will be gone in favor of crappier models.

                          General motors has sadly dissapointed me not only in the amount of recals they do have but when they screw up and don’t do a recall, they try and cut corners at the expense of the customer, they make way too many excuses.. “its better for fuel economy.” “it reduces the price of the car.” excuse my friench MY ASS it does! it reduces the price of manufacturing and that is all, the 2008 Pontiac grand prix i love my car, i think it was truly the last good car GM ever made and i have heard quite a bit of good things about my car, but after that they stopped using the 3800 and went too 60 degree cast iron block aluminom head engines like the 3500 and 3900, i don’t like them! i think they are junk! even in the old days they used excuses using plastic gaskets on the 3800s and 3100s, metal framed gaskets where a aftermarket deal! transmission issues, issues with Dexcool, lots of these things werent even recalled besides the Rocker cover gaskets on the 3800 series II which caused cars literally too catch on fire in the parking lot… and that’s the only time GM will really recall anything is when it threatens someones life, like my friends 2006 pontiac G6 got recalled because the power steering would randomly go out and kill people because no one knows how too steer a car without power steering anymore…

                          its all something too pinch a penny and save a drop of gas, i sit there and wonder ok save gas well i see no improvement in fuel econmy from my 1998 Buick Regal and my 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix! a decade difference 0 fuel economy gain, same driveline, same engine, same transmission, but there is more plastic and aluminom and non return fuel system and this and that. it all does one thing, saves $$$$$$ in there pockets! i wonder when companies will realize when they make a product rather than take shortcuts they should probably do a good job and make a good car again, and maybe they would sell some, but most people are also too ignorant too know what a good car is “oh dat kar iz shineh! meh gonah get a lone and bie it!” never mind the fact the old 2000 Buck Regal GS is probably a better car than that brand new 2013 Buick LaCrosse.

                          i also think its the falt of the consumer, we are dumb enough too buy into there game, ooh this car is nice its shiny its got a nice fancy paint job and looks real sharp and its got all these fancy buttons and a built in GPS and 1361 cup holders and bluetooth and all that fancy crap, never mind the fact all that crap is built too puke at exactly the same time, pay no mind that that 3.9L V6 just isnt the same engine is that good old Cast iron block and heads 3800… pay no mind too the fact the transmission doesn’t even have a fricking dipstick too check your tranny fluid levels, just flat out never mind at all…

                          i will drive this pontiac, and i will drive it proud, i will drive it until it pukes and then drive it some more, i will become the stubbern old man who drives his Model T around town because he won’t trust anything ells new out there because its just JUNK! and these recalls prove that point, that they are garbage.


                            wasn’t the Firestone tire thing a lot to do with tire pressures too. i am also a big fan of what ford is doing, seem too want too help the economy more than make a dollar… well in the end they are probably following the example of the inventor of the company, make a product that gives everyone jobs and makes a simple easy to fix reliable product everyone can afford, i think that is the approach ford is trying too take, as henry ford took with the model T

                            as far as recalls my mom has a 2010 Ford Escape, and there is a recall for its electronic throttle body, it seemes these drive buy wire systems have a few bugs too work out.

                            Dave OlsonDave

                              Yes the Explorer recall was about tire pressure (remember back then the Explorer was a Ranger with an enclosed body). People would buy them then complain that their truck rode like a truck, so Fords engineers said the pressure could be lowered in the tires and still be safe (in some cases down to 26 psi). Then people loaded up their Explorers with people/gear and a trailer then go down the highway at 70 mph. Guess what happened the tires got hot and blew.

                              Now Ford blamed Firestone because the Tires should have held up but after that the raised the pressure back to 35 psi and no problems since.

                              This is why all of the tire guys have to deal with T.P.M. systems now.

                              Then the craze of packing SUV’s with every possible gadget took over rendering the vehicles useless to the people they were designed for.

                              Lorrin BarthLorrin Barth

                                [quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=95598][quote=”barneyb” post=95581]Am I missing something here? According to the chart GM is the third best make.[/quote]

                                It is true that they aren’t the worst, but they also sell more vehicles than anyone else and I’m sure that helps their numbers. My argument is about build quality, not recall rate. So my comments were based more on build quality over recall rate. I was just quoting the original post.[/quote]

                                I was a little confused, every one is lambasting GM and the chart shows GM being better than any of the Japanese makers except Mazda. While I haven’t kicked any tires at a GM showroom lately I have a hard time believing the chart is correct.

                                Way down at the bottom you find Mitsubishi. I drive a Mitsubishi and it is the best car I ever owned but it was recalled. The Gross Vehicular Weight on the placard was wrong and the dealer affixed a new sticker. That would count as being recalled.

                                Back in the fifties car styling went to four headlights. GM kept right on using the same headlight switch. Driving along one night in my ’78 Pontiac on an empty road my cousin said the odor we were detecting was from grain dryers. It actually was my headlight switch frying. Finally in the late ’80’s NHTSA made GM recall some cars and install working headlight switches. GM had thirty plus years to detect and fix this problem and did nothing. The point is – nothing new here.

                                Lorrin BarthLorrin Barth

                                  This is from Wikipedia

                                  The Ford Explorer was first offered for sale in March 1990. Ford internal documents show the company engineers recommended changes to the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to introduction, but other than a few minor changes, the suspension and track width were not changed. Instead, Ford, which sets the specifications for the manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering the recommended pressure to 26 psi. The maximum pressure stamped into the sidewall of the tire was 35 psi; however tires should only be inflated to the pressure listed by the vehicle’s manufacturer.

                                  The failures all involved tread separation—the tread peeling off followed often by tire disintegration. If that happened, and the vehicle was running at speed, there was a high likelihood of the vehicle leaving the road and rolling over. Many rollovers cause serious injury and even death; it has been estimated that over 250 deaths and more than 3,000 serious injuries resulted from these failures, with not all occurring on Ford Motor Company vehicles.[4] It is estimated that 119 of the 250 deaths resulted from a crash with a Ford Motor Company vehicle.[4]

                                  Ford and Firestone have both blamed the other for the failures, which has led to the severing of relations between the two companies. Firestone has claimed that they have found no faults in design nor manufacture, and that failures have been caused by Ford’s recommended tire pressure being too low and the Explorer’s design. Ford, meanwhile, point out that Goodyear tires to the same specification have a spotless safety record when installed on the Explorer, although an extra liner was included into the Goodyear design after recommendations to that effect were made to Ford. Firestone included an extra liner in its product and this was then also used to replace tires on Ford Explorers. It is well accepted within the tire manufacturing industry that use of a “belt edge layer” or as referred above as an extra layer, virtually eliminates belt edge separation. As a rubber tire moves on the road, it generates tremendous heat. As steel belts heat up, they expand and want to pull away or separate from rubber. The use of nylon belt edges has been in use since radial tires were first developed in the 1970s. Firestone could achieve cost savings from eliminating this extra layer.

                                  Some outside observers have speculated about the blame worthiness of both parties;[5] Firestone’s tires being prone to tread separation and failure, and the SUVs being especially prone to rolling over if a tire fails at speed compared to other vehicles. A subsequent NHTSA investigation of real world accident data showed that the SUVs in question were no more likely to roll over than any other SUV, after a tread separation.[6]

                                  Lorrin BarthLorrin Barth

                                    Watch this to the end!

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