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[quote=”Shizerproject” post=49616]Most german manufacturers only specify semi synth too as thats all most applications call for[/quote]
At very least, BMW, Porsche and Mercedes Benz all use 100% synthetic motor oils with recommended drain intervals of 1 year/15,000 miles.
[quote=”Lord Ihcalam” post=48665]i think because of a court case, anything labeled full synthetic is fully sytnthetic oil. major brands such as catrol and valvoline and quaker state sell semi synthetic or synthetic blended oil. penzoil does too, but i was taught by my grandfather (a master mechanic for over 50 years) to never use penzoil, not even in a lawnmower. you can usually tell the difference by bottle color, silver is often the blend gold the full, or the prices, semi will be somewhere halfway between standard motor oil and full synthetics.[/quote]
Most, “synthetic oils”, that you see down at auto parts stores, (and I suspect some of the O.E. vehicle branded, “synthetic oils” as well), are what is known as Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils are merely petroleum oils subjected to more refining and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum, (Group II), and Group III, “synthetic oils”. These Group III, “synthetic oils”, also don’t share all the superior performance and protection characteristics that a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil offers, such as superior high and low temperature performance/protection, superior heat transfer characteristics/reduced engine operating temperatures and traditional PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are totally devoid of all the naturally occurring contaminants that can’t all be refined out of a petroleum oil and this is one of the keys to understanding why PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are so superior.
[quote=”randomman” post=48926][quote=”jeffrey” post=48737]So Mobile 1 isn’t a pure synthetic? (hhmmm..I hate it when a company bs’s me.) Is there a way to tell on the bottle? Group III’s or some such? …and what is the real deal?[/quote]
mobile 1 is NOT 100% man-made. it is a PAO blend (group 4). mobile 1 is still good. unless you track your car regularly there is no point in getting a pure group 4/5 oil[/quote]
As their website states, Mobil 1 is indeed a 100% synthetic motor oil using a Group IV PAO basestock, which is man-made.
Top performing synthetic oils typically deliver better fuel economy, more power/throttle response, superior high and low temperature engine protection, easier cold winter engine starts, superior lubrication/reduced engine wear, reduced emissions, an internally cleaner engine, reduced engine operating temperatures, etc. These are all benefits any motorist can take advantage of.
[quote=”jay_ie” post=49614]With regards to oil grades look for the German manufacturers approvals, Mercedes,VW, BMW & Porshe on the back of the oil container.
As a rule of thumb these guys are really strict about oil quality so if it has their endorsement you can’t go wrong.
(you’ll be surprised how many top end oil Brands don’t)[/quote]Meeting the performance standards for motor oils intended for European cars is not an endorsement. It just means the oil meets the performance standard required by a given European car company, i.e. BMW LL-01. This is not a BMW endorsement, just an oil performance standard. In the U.S., we use API ratings, such as SL, SM and the most current is SN, but European car manufacturers have their own standards because the vehicles in Europe generally have to deal with very different usage compared to American cars, so the motor oils must meet very different performance standards as well. This is why the American Petroleum Institute, (or API), oil standards don’t apply to European vehicles and vice versa.
[quote=”Chevypower” post=49097]What about Dexos?[/quote]
GM dexos1™ isn’t an oil brand, but an oil performance standard like API SN, BMW LL-01, etc.
[quote=”chevyaz” post=48533]I think this topic is great,there is alot of good synthetic oil out there thats fo sure. But it so exspensive for my budget. I just use good oil thats on sale. And always every 3,000 miles to change it.[/quote]
Better quality synthetic oils can save a lot of money vs dead dinosaur oils. I’ve been an independent AMSOIL synthetic lubricants dealer for over 25 years and my customers and I save anywhere from about $150 – $300 per year depending on how many miles a vehicle is driven every year and that’s just in reduced oil change costs and improved fuel economy.
No need to change even petroleum oils every 3,000 miles anymore. That went out with the 1960’s. Every major petroleum oil manufacturer now recommends longer drain intervals. There’s no need or benefit in changing motor oils more than necessary.
I hope this helps you out.
[quote=”jeffrey” post=48659]Now what are the brands that are called synthetic but are actually a blend because of a loophole? Is Mobile 1 really full synthetic?[/quote]
There is no loophole. There aren’t any blend oils being referred to as full synthetics. That would be illegal.
By law, a semi-synthetic or blend oil, can have as little as 1% synthetic oil in it and still be called a blend. If the bottle doesn’t even state the percentage of the synthetic oil in the blend, (I’ve never seen one that does), buyer beware. I personally don’t see any benefit to what I call these pretend-it’s-a-synthetic-oil products anyway.
Most, “synthetic oils”, that you see down at auto parts stores, (and I suspect some of the O.E. vehicle branded, “synthetic oils” as well), are what is known as Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils are merely petroleum oils subjected to more refining and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum, (Group II), and Group III, “synthetic oils”. These Group III, “synthetic oils”, also don’t share all the superior performance and protection characteristics that a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil offers, such as superior high and low temperature performance/protection, superior heat transfer characteristics/reduced engine operating temperatures and traditional PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are totally devoid of all the naturally occurring contaminants that can’t all be refined out of a petroleum oil and this is one of the keys to understanding why PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are so superior.
To determine which, “synthetic oil”, is merely a Group III, “synthetic oil”, or a true Group IV, or Group V synthetic oil, look at the Product Data Sheet of that oil, (can be found at most oil companies websites, if the information isn’t supplied, buyer beware), and compare the pour points and flash points of the oils. The true Group IV and Group V synthetic oils typically have substantially lower pour points and higher flash points.
I hope this has answered your question. Take care.
[quote=”ScottBlue5″ post=49627]
Most, “synthetic oils”, that you see down at auto parts stores, (and I suspect some of the O.E. vehicle branded, “synthetic oils” as well), are what is known as Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils are merely petroleum oils subjected to more refining and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum, (Group II), and Group III, “synthetic oils”. These Group III, “synthetic oils”, also don’t share all the superior performance and protection characteristics that a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil offers, such as superior high and low temperature performance/protection, superior heat transfer characteristics/reduced engine operating temperatures and traditional PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are totally devoid of all the naturally occurring contaminants that can’t all be refined out of a petroleum oil and this is one of the keys to understanding why PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are so superior.[/quote]
1:not the color of the oil the color of the bottle it comes in.
2: if it isnt full synthetic, i’m filing a class action lawsuit against Quaker State, penzoil and any other brand on the shelf that claims to have fully synthetic oil on the bottles label.
3: i take back the above, because after actually doing some research, quaker state is full synthetic http://www.quakerstate.com/#/motor-oil/ultimate-durability so is penzoil http://pennzoil.com/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra-synthetic-oil/#Specifications[quote=”rhsimmons92″ post=48408]I know the importance of changing your oil regularly. I’ve got an 05 grand caravan with roughly 170k miles on it. It hasn’t used a drop of oil nor makes any engine noise. I used conventional on the first change and then a syn blend on the second (A relative gave me the syn blend. It was free so I used it). Now I went less than 3k miles between the change because I don’t drive it a lot. We got the van in September and I changed it in December. If your car sits more than you drive it should you change it every 3-4 months instead of every 3k-4k miles?[/quote]
Hello rhsimmons92. You have posed a very good question! 🙂
With a vehicle that isn’t driven very much and sits dormant more than it is used, the motor oil still goes through a process of degradation. Once the bottle is opened, humidity and other airborne contaminants begin the process of degrading the oil, (with a petroleum oil already having contaminants in it, this makes things even worse). As the motor oil is heat-cycled in the engine and sits for long periods of time, its additive package is degrading and with petroleum oils the blowby gases from combustion combine with the contaminants present in a petroleum oil, (contaminants such as waxes, asphalts, napthese, benzens, sulphurs, etc.), to create other very nasty and caustic acids that attack all the seals, gaskets and metal surfaces inside the engine. So even with an engine that just sits, the oil within it is chemically degrading. This is why it’s important to change oil by the recommended mileage or time elapsed.
If the oil in question is not formulated for safe extended drain intervals, then it can cause engine damage to ask the standard drain oil to perform in extended drain service, be it in extended mileage or extended time.
All oils are not the same and this is especially the case with a high quality synthetic oil compared with a run of the mill petroleum oil, so always follow the recommended change intervals of the oil manufacturers. They know best what their products are capable of or not. Usually, a given oil companies website will have the recommended drain intervals for their various oils.
Regarding the 3,000 mile drain pain, that was originally initiated in the 1960’s, it’s now over 50 years later, 2013, and technology does progress. With modern oils and engines, 3,000 mile drain intervals are no longer needed and even the greedy big oil companies no longer recommend such short drain intervals anymore. Oil analysis test results have conclusively proven that 3,000 mile drain intervals are overkill in the extreme. The big oil industry has been exposed by consumer organizations for trying to literally brainwash motorists into changing their motor oils too often. Okay class, can we imagine why the big oil industry might want motorists to change their vehicle’s motor oil more often? 🙂 I knew you could class! You win 100 points! lol 🙂
There’s an old adage that applies here; when you want to know the truth, follow the money! 🙂
[quote=”KLFER” post=48635]i watched both videos and i agree with ETCG! i for one use full synthetic in my 2003 ever since i bought it with 60k now it has 120k with no problems from the oil and i change my oil every 8k. my 1990 accord with 250k gets regular oil and it does have a leak but synthetic will increase the leak and you will be adding more oil making synthetic cost a lot more over time which makes no point. both oils with do the job as long as you maintain your oil changes. regular oil isn’t as forgiving as synthetic when it come to not changing oil. conventional oil molecules break does about 3-5 times faster then synthetic and regular oil absorbs moisture and synthetic doesn’t.[/quote]
Motor oil doesn’t really breakdown, per se. The additive package chemicals present in the oil do degrade and get used up over time however.
There’s an old adage; “Oil and water do not mix”, and it’s correct. Any water vapor inside an engine is evaporated by the high engine temperatures inside the engine, unless the engine is never warmed up and is being driven in extreme short trip driving.
[quote=”Lord Ihcalam” post=49637][quote=”ScottBlue5″ post=49627]
Most, “synthetic oils”, that you see down at auto parts stores, (and I suspect some of the O.E. vehicle branded, “synthetic oils” as well), are what is known as Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils are merely petroleum oils subjected to more refining and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum, (Group II), and Group III, “synthetic oils”. These Group III, “synthetic oils”, also don’t share all the superior performance and protection characteristics that a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil offers, such as superior high and low temperature performance/protection, superior heat transfer characteristics/reduced engine operating temperatures and traditional PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are totally devoid of all the naturally occurring contaminants that can’t all be refined out of a petroleum oil and this is one of the keys to understanding why PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are so superior.[/quote]
1:not the color of the oil the color of the bottle it comes in.
2: if it isnt full synthetic, i’m filing a class action lawsuit against Quaker State, penzoil and any other brand on the shelf that claims to have fully synthetic oil on the bottles label.
3: i take back the above, because after actually doing some research, quaker state is full synthetic http://www.quakerstate.com/#/motor-oil/ultimate-durability so is penzoil http://pennzoil.com/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra-synthetic-oil/#Specifications%5B/quote%5DThe color of the oil bottle has nothing to do with the basestock of the oil inside the bottle. Oil bottle colors are chosen by an oil companies marketing department.
The definition of what a, “synthetic oil”, is or not was changed a few years back to include Group III, “synthetic oils”, which are refined from petroleum crude oils which originate from the ground. With the test data I have seen on the product data sheets of these Group III, “synthetic oils”, (the product data sheets can be found at most oil companies websites), in my opinion most of them sold at auto parts stores, (not all), are indeed Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils can be refined into a finished product for a lower cost than true Group IV PAO based or Group V Ester based synthetic oils, yet a court decided these oils can still be legally termed, “synthetic oils”. These oils are sold for a higher price than their Group II petroleum oil brethren. I personally think this is very wrong that American consumers are being allowed to be deceived like this. It’s my understanding that in Europe, it’s illegal for oil companies to do this and only true Group IV and Group V oils can legally be termed synthetic oils.
For more information on this topic go to -> Mobil v Castrol, (RE:Synthetic)
[quote=”EricTheCarGuy” post=48394]I hope this makes my opinions a little more clear. We’ll see.[/quote]
Hi Eric! I respect the H, E, double toothpicks out of you, as you are one of the best, most knowledgeable and most intelligent automotive technicians I have ever seen in my life! Hats off to you sir! 🙂 If I had an automotive technician in my auto centers with your talents, there would be far fewer comebacks and much happier customers!
As you correctly state, no one can know it all and I’m the synthetic oil expert you have asked for. Personally, I don’t like to be termed an expert, because the way I see it, an expert knows it all and if you already know it all, well then there’s nothing left to learn and that would be a very dismal state of affairs. So I just prefer to say I’m very knowledgeable on this topic as I’m an independent AMSOIL synthetic lubricants Dealer with over 25 years of experience in the synthetic oil industry. On YouTube, I sent you three video’s on this topic that I think you will find very interesting. So check your shared with you video inbox on YouTube.
There’s so many benefits to a top quality synthetic oil; reduced maintenance costs, reduced engine wear, increased power/throttle response, reduced emissions, much easier cold winter engine starts, an internally cleaner engine, improved fuel economy, (saving more money), etc., and these are all distinct benefits that any motorist can take advantage of. It might be silly not to take advantage of the latest technology in engine lubrication.
It’s kind of like comparing bias-ply tires with radial tires; yes they both roll down the road and the bias-play tires are, “good enough”. But only a fool wouldn’t want to take advantage of the superior performance a radial tire has vs a bias-ply tire, like longer tire life, reduced costs/saving money, improved fuel economy, superior handling, better ride, improved safety, better braking, etc.
Another aspect to the answer to your question is that I think most, “synthetic oils”, that you see down at auto parts stores, (and I suspect some of the O.E. vehicle branded, “synthetic oils” as well), from what I have seen from the test data revealed on product data sheets, (product data sheets can be found at most oil companies websites), are what is known as Group III, “synthetic oils”. These oils are merely petroleum oils subjected to more refining and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum, (Group II), and Group III, “synthetic oils”. These Group III, “synthetic oils”, also don’t share all the superior performance and protection characteristics that a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil offers, such as superior high and low temperature performance/protection, superior heat transfer characteristics/reduced engine operating temperatures and traditional PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are totally devoid of all the naturally occurring contaminants that can’t all be refined out of a petroleum oil and this is one of the keys to understanding why PAO/Ester based synthetic oils are so superior.
Petroleum oils come from the ground and have a host of naturally occurring contaminants in them that can’t all be refined out. Waxes, asphalts, napthenes, benzynes, sulphurs, etc., remain in the finished product. So when the unknowing motorist pours this stuff into their engine, (which has its own set of problems), and these contaminants mix with blowby gases inside the engine, it creates other very nasty and corrosive acids that attack all the metal surfaces inside an engine, such as bearings, cylinder walls, gaskets and seals, etc., (as you have correctly pointed out). This is why petroleum based oils should be changed on a fairly regular basis so as to remove these accumulated contaminants. Another detracting factor to this drawback of petroleum based oils is that the additive package in the oil, (a group of chemicals a tribologist puts into the oil to help it do its job better), has to address the shortcomings caused by the contaminants that are found in petroleum oils and try to counteract those shortcomings. Up to about 25% of a quart of motor oil consists of its additive package.
Now with PAO/Ester based synthetic oils, its a whole different ball game! These oils are formulated in a laboratory using man-made chemicals to formulate a synthetic oil, (and here comes the huge key!), and they are devoid of all the contaminants that are present in petroleum oil! Your engine really likes this, because not only are contaminants not being poured into the engine with the oil change, but since there are no contaminants in the PAO/Ester based synthetic oil from the start, this means that the blowby gases from combustion inside the engine now don’t combine with contaminants to create other nasty acids and contaminants! This means the PAO/Ester based synthetic oil stays cleaner much, much longer than a petroleum oil can in its wildest dreams! For this reason, the notion that PAO/Easter based synthetic oils, “get dirty just as fast as petroleum oils do”, is totally incorrect.
On top of this, with the PAO/Ester based synthetic oils not having contaminants in them, this means the tribologist, (a fancy name for an oil chemist, Google it), can use different additive package chemicals to improve the performance of the synthetic oil instead of trying to address the shortcomings the contaminants in a petroleum oil present. This allows a PAO/Ester based synthetic oil to vastly outperform/out-protect a petroleum oil and safely last, much, much, much longer. 🙂
For more information on this, you can visit my website at –>Hi-Tech Oil and also this article on this subject is absolutely fantastic -> Synthetic Oil: Rx For Long Engine Life Also, here’s a video from my YouTube channel that discusses this very topic -> Synthetic Oil Basics
I hope I’ve answered your questions and then some. 🙂
[quote=”ScottBlue5″ post=49627]…and they are not true Group IV PAO or Group V Ester based synthetic oils that can have a vastly greater film strength than petroleum,….[/quote]
Just a clarification. A Group V oil is not necessarily ester based. Group V is a catch all for any oil that does not have properties of Groups I – IV and can include esters, but that is no guarantee that a particular oil labeled Group V is an ester or ester based…
[quote=”ScottBlue5″ post=49629]As their website states, Mobil 1 is indeed a 100% synthetic motor oil using a Group IV PAO basestock, which is man-made…[/quote]
I challenge you to show us any documentation from Exxon-Mobil that clearly says that Mobil 1 is 100% Group IV PAO.
If such documentation exists, I am not aware of it. EOM is very cagey about their oil formulation and they go to great lengths not to talk about it. It’s a great oil, but most tribologists agree that Mobil 1 is a blend. (Some do believe that the M1 high mileage may be 100% PAO).
At any rate, in the U.S., any one can call a Group III/Group IV blended oil “fully synthetic” and it’s perfectly permissible per the arbitration case that EOM lost in 1999. See my earlier post for the link to that case.
[quote=”ScottBlue5″ post=49634]..There is no loophole. There aren’t any blend oils being referred to as full synthetics. That would be illegal…[/quote]
No, that’s not correct. And it’s not really a case of legal or illegal, it was a marketing arbitration case that EOM lost. As a result of that case, it became permissible to call Group III oils or Group III/PAO blend oils “fully synthetic” in the U.S.
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