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WOW!! Almost same case scenario. I have a 97 explorer sport 4.0 6cyl. Was loosing fluids for over a year. Started out very small with the hint of anitfreeze smell. Then as of recent I was filling the rad everytime I went anywhere. Changed thermostat, and then discovered it was the entire thermostat housing. Was able to get one cheaper on Ebay, and my Hubby replaced the entire assembly…housing both top and bottom, sensors, thermostat, etc….took it for a test drive about 40 miles. Mostly highway and no leaks and all was fine until 40 miles. The temp gauge headed to the top and the check gauge light came on, and then a less then a minute, it went back down to the normal temp range. I was 1 mile from my daughters house and sitting at a stop light, I observed white smoke coming out of my exhaust. The temp outside was about 40 degrees so I knew it was not from the cold weather. Refilled rad…took about a gallon headed back home. My husband (Carl) made a vacuum line adjustment also as it was acting very hesitant and somewhat sluggish. On our way back home ran fine. Next day went to auto part store to get antifreeze and compression tester to rule out head gasket issues etc….came out fom store went to start it an it did not connect..Tried a 2nd and 3rd time. then on 4th try it started but was knocking like crazy. Kinda like the sound of a fauly lifter. I shut it off and did not observe any leaks or oil. I nursed it home (less than a mile) and Carl looked at it and found the DFEP (?) sensor was broke.
So I am complexed as to what exactly was the original issue as it seems like it has become a domino affect of sorts. Not sure if the sensor may have caused the timing to jump. Is that even possible.
It has 225,000 miles on it and has been a great runner for the past 7 years. Just wondering what the next step should be. Do no want to put a whole lot of money into it….would rather get a different vehicle if thats the case. Thanks for your input…S:)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpXgAJ1gjU
Eric’s video on burping a cooling system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUzOTnsW … ure=relmfu
Even better, Eric’s video on overheating conditions, which is basically a master checklist on what to do when your car overheats.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Quoted From Beefy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpXgAJ1gjU
Eric’s video on burping a cooling system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUzOTnsW … ure=relmfu
Even better, Eric’s video on overheating conditions, which is basically a master checklist on what to do when your car overheats.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Thanks, I watched both of those videos.
I have been considering getting a compression/vaccum tester and combustion gas tester, but haven’t done either yet. (From the video it looks like NAPA sells the latter)
As for taking it back to the shop, I’d really like to have an idea whats wrong before doing that this time. I don’t have the money to pay them for additional problems, and I’m sure they aren’t going to refund me for anything at this point. If I discover the thermostat or fan clutch were not actually replaced, that would be different.
ONE NEW SYMPTOM: Last night i attempted another bleed (this time with the cap half tight per instructions i found at http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/sho … p?t=199949 post #12) Today i checked on the car and the top and lower radiator hoses are collapsed… Removed the radiator cap and they are still collapsed. Started and warmed it up today. when the thermostat opened the hoses started to regain shape. idled at 2000 RPM for over 5 minutes. when I released the throttle i got a slight spritz from the radiator cap but the hoses seemed to colapse again… maybe they’ve deformed and are stuck that shape? closed cap and checked for leaks… no obvious leaks, but it’s dark out.
Are there valves preventing those hoses from sucking water from the radiator? If not, does this suggest a severely clogged radiator? The overflow hose is not blocked either… This seems strange, but I read something about collapsed hoses and putting metal coils in them on that ford forum and will check back there. That being said, I had not seen this problem at first so that is also strange.
Thanks everyone.
EDIT: The more i think about it this explanation fits… 1)water pump draws too much vaccum on inlet from radiator and cant get enough cool water circulation due to hose collapse. 2) water pressure and temp in engine rises and eventually provides extra pressure to force cool water from radiator into engine. Hence, the temp goes up and quickly falls until the pattern repeats itself.
EDIT2: Eric, you’re in Cincinnatti? heck if i thought my car would make it from Columbus to there i’d bring it to you 🙂
Quoted From Stargazer:
WOW!! Almost same case scenario. I have a 97 explorer sport 4.0 6cyl. Was loosing fluids for over a year. Started out very small with the hint of anitfreeze smell. Then as of recent I was filling the rad everytime I went anywhere. Changed thermostat, and then discovered it was the entire thermostat housing. Was able to get one cheaper on Ebay, and my Hubby replaced the entire assembly…housing both top and bottom, sensors, thermostat, etc….took it for a test drive about 40 miles. Mostly highway and no leaks and all was fine until 40 miles. The temp gauge headed to the top and the check gauge light came on, and then a less then a minute, it went back down to the normal temp range. I was 1 mile from my daughters house and sitting at a stop light, I observed white smoke coming out of my exhaust. The temp outside was about 40 degrees so I knew it was not from the cold weather. Refilled rad…took about a gallon headed back home. My husband (Carl) made a vacuum line adjustment also as it was acting very hesitant and somewhat sluggish. On our way back home ran fine. Next day went to auto part store to get antifreeze and compression tester to rule out head gasket issues etc….came out fom store went to start it an it did not connect..Tried a 2nd and 3rd time. then on 4th try it started but was knocking like crazy. Kinda like the sound of a fauly lifter. I shut it off and did not observe any leaks or oil. I nursed it home (less than a mile) and Carl looked at it and found the DFEP (?) sensor was broke.
So I am complexed as to what exactly was the original issue as it seems like it has become a domino affect of sorts. Not sure if the sensor may have caused the timing to jump. Is that even possible.
It has 225,000 miles on it and has been a great runner for the past 7 years. Just wondering what the next step should be. Do no want to put a whole lot of money into it….would rather get a different vehicle if thats the case. Thanks for your input…S:)stargazer, its interesting we have similar cars but your problem does seem like it might be different than mine. I have not found any white smoke in exhaust for example. It’s frustrating that many different problems can all have similar symptoms in the cooling system… the only thing that comes to mind is the air pocket issue that these engines have (and i’ve been trying to resolve that) the owners manual for my ford says something like “coolant loss may happen due to air trapped in the system. if it happens for more than 7500 miles contact your ford dealer.” really? 7500 miles? thats like 2 years for me, and probably 6 months for most people. but take a look at that link i posted in my last post about bleeding procedures. it seems as if that is at least one part of the puzzle.
Quoted From CoffeeMan:
OK, I’ll start with a brief background:
I was driving home and noticed the engine overheating about 1 mile from home, so i cranked the heat and that helped a little bit. Got home and popped the hood and there were all sorts of gurgling (boiling) noises. the coolant overflow tank was near full. after cooling down, however the overflow tank was empty completely.
So I already knew i was due for a flush and fill, and possibly the main problem was just low fluid since i couldnt remember the last time i checked it for sure.
Took it to a garage and asked for a flush and fill, and to see if there were any obvious problems. They somehow talked me into new hoses, thermostat, water pump, and fan clutch for prices i think are rediculous. They suggest that stop leak was put in there sometime in the past (not by me) and that was part of the problem.
Finally got the car back and it is still overheating, although not as bad. It will stay normal but every 10 minutes or so the temp guage will wander up to about 80 percent (no numbers on the guage) then suddenly drop back down to a nice cool temperature for a while. It appears as if there is at least one leak toward the top of the engine, but only seems to leak when this fluctuation happens (probably because of the extra boiling pressure?) There may be lower leaks too, but it’s hard to pinpoint them without dissasembly (and doing that means i cant run it!)
So my thoughts right now are that perhaps new head and intake gaskets are in order, but I’m not sure it’s worthwhile… Or, maybe the fan clutch, but they supposedly replaced that too… I do some work on cars, and have haynes manual instructions, so I can attempt to do it myself, but would not pay for this work since the car is not worth that kind of money. It seems that i can do it wouthout pulling the engine or disconnecting the A/C lines so that is good.
Anyway, I just wondered if anyone had any further thoughts on this.
EDIT: afterthought: i thought it could be air left in the system, cause this engine apparently has some issues with that. it was making some thumping sounds occasionally, but I can’t tell if that’s a cause or effect of boiling… hopefully a little air wouldn’t have caused major problems since i have been only driving it very lightly since the “repairs”. I’ve probably done 10 warm up / cool down cycles in my driveway and 5 short trips since the service.
My advice would be to take it back to the shop that worked on it. sounds like you spent a fair amount of money there. they need to make it right.
Quoted From Stargazer:
WOW!! Almost same case scenario. I have a 97 explorer sport 4.0 6cyl. Was loosing fluids for over a year. Started out very small with the hint of anitfreeze smell. Then as of recent I was filling the rad everytime I went anywhere. Changed thermostat, and then discovered it was the entire thermostat housing. Was able to get one cheaper on Ebay, and my Hubby replaced the entire assembly…housing both top and bottom, sensors, thermostat, etc….took it for a test drive about 40 miles. Mostly highway and no leaks and all was fine until 40 miles. The temp gauge headed to the top and the check gauge light came on, and then a less then a minute, it went back down to the normal temp range. I was 1 mile from my daughters house and sitting at a stop light, I observed white smoke coming out of my exhaust. The temp outside was about 40 degrees so I knew it was not from the cold weather. Refilled rad…took about a gallon headed back home. My husband (Carl) made a vacuum line adjustment also as it was acting very hesitant and somewhat sluggish. On our way back home ran fine. Next day went to auto part store to get antifreeze and compression tester to rule out head gasket issues etc….came out fom store went to start it an it did not connect..Tried a 2nd and 3rd time. then on 4th try it started but was knocking like crazy. Kinda like the sound of a fauly lifter. I shut it off and did not observe any leaks or oil. I nursed it home (less than a mile) and Carl looked at it and found the DFEP (?) sensor was broke.
So I am complexed as to what exactly was the original issue as it seems like it has become a domino affect of sorts. Not sure if the sensor may have caused the timing to jump. Is that even possible.
It has 225,000 miles on it and has been a great runner for the past 7 years. Just wondering what the next step should be. Do no want to put a whole lot of money into it….would rather get a different vehicle if thats the case. Thanks for your input…S:)Start by checking the plugs for any sign of coolant on them. check the oil for any sign of coolant in it. with a good flash light ( the bend a light type ) look into the cylinders through the spark plug holes. burning coolant will make a steam effect and leave the piston tops looking steam cleaned. a compression test will help as well as a cylinder leak down test to determine engine condition. check these things out then let us know what you find. also- do you have a cel lit up ? one more question – noticed your screen name.. are you a Dio Fan per chance ?
+1 on Beey’s and 619Dio’s posts.
I would do a cooling system pressure tester to see if the system is holding pressure along with a block test too to check for exhaust gasses in the coolant.
And welcome to the forums!
Quoted From Beefy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpXgAJ1gjU
Eric’s video on burping a cooling system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUzOTnsW … ure=relmfu
Even better, Eric’s video on overheating conditions, which is basically a master checklist on what to do when your car overheats.
Good luck, keep us posted.
This is part of the reason I started this forum, I have ‘trained’ you well!
Seriously thanks for the post.
I’m wondering if you might want to watch the overheat video again because what you describe would indicate a problem with the radiator cap as described in the video. Also I strongly recommend you use the methods outlined in the bleeding a cooling system video to make sure you got all the air out as that is the MOST common cause of an overheat condition, in effect a coolant leak will cause air to be introduced into the system and cause the overheat (you don’t need a bleeder valve to successfully bleed the air out of the system BTW), a pressure tester will help you find any leaks. BTW the water pump does NOT create a vacuum in the system it just moves the water through the system.
Because of the holidays I have not done any further work on my vehicle. However, I am thnkful for all the insight info and love Eric’s videos on youtube. Even a girl like myself can easily understand and perform the steps he gives… So thanks Eric!! I will continue with the fix of my 96 explorer and keep you all posted.
To the guy who asked if I was a DIO fan…not sure what DIO is, but I love the sky and all it’s mysteries! Happy wrenching all.Ok, that weird hose collapse thing only happened once. It was right after put on a brand new radiator cap (worth a shot). Maybe it got stuck the first time or something. Anyway, between that and the old cap, there is otherwise no difference in behavior.
I rewatched your “bleeding a cooling system” video. One thing you talked about is a bleeder valve on the engine which I have not found any reference to for my Explorer. There is a capped fitting on top of the intake manifold on the RH (passenger) side but I’m pretty sure thats fuel pressure from the rail.
Let me go back to the thermal fan clutch. It was supposedly replaced, but I’m not sure it’s working correctly. Engine cold, the fan has a lot of resistance to turning. Engine warm, it has only a little resistance. Thus it is very loud when i first start the car, but gets quiet and i never hear it that loud again. According to Haynes, this is wrong on both counts. But, I read somewhere else that some clutches are just engaged/loud at first until they “loosen up”, but can’t verify that. And, it never did that before all of this. Now, all that being said, would a slow fan make that big of a difference in weather that has been around freezing?
My latest effort today: I ran accross some tips/similar situations in the explorer forum I mentioned above. I tried raising the front of the vehicle while bleeding it (I know, sounds strange but…) didn’t work.
Then I tested the car in all A/C and heat positions, and discovered (so far) it seems like it only misbehaves when the heater control valve (i think its called) is open. I think I’ll drive around with the heat off for a while and see what happens. (see if it still leaks at all.) I havent seen any leaks on the passenger side floor, or under that area of the hood. (EDIT: also might try bypassing the control valve to rule that out, since it is winter.)
So, maybe it still could be air in the heater core, or perhaps a clogged core? Since the heater control valve was replaced, could it be installed wrong, or just bad? maybe it clogged while flushing? (from sludge or the “stop leak” they found in there)
Thanks for your insight.
EDIT: just re-read your post. (sorry I keep forgetting where i read what…) I think that the leak is (hopefully) just the engine-to-heater fitting which is only leaking when the pressure gets high enough (it has a spring-type clip on it.) I know it’s leaking there, but not sure if anywhere else.
You’re right about a pressure test… i’ll see if i can find a way to do that on the cheap.
W-|
I wish I would have put it directly in the video but during the part where I talk about the bleeder valve I put an annotation up that states that the bleeder valve is NOT necessary to bleed the air out of the system and only serves to help fill the system faster, in sort it doesn’t’ matter if you have a bleeder valve or not the rest of the things in that video still apply and I do NOT recommend putting the radiator cap on half off or anywhere near the opening as the air needs a way of escaping the system and it can’t do that if you block the exit. I also cover the valves in the radiator cap and what they control, the flow to the overflow tank, if there is a problem with the valves in the cap it can cause the hoses to collapse because it creates a vacuum on the system. If this happened with your new cap your cap is bad and you should return it, it should work correctly right out of the box and if it doesn’t then there’s something wrong with it.
The overheat video also covers airflow and the symptoms poor airflow can create but to be honest I don’t think you have bled the air from the system correctly and would suggest you do that according to the video FIRST before you move on to other potential issues such as clutch fans and the like.
Ok, after seeing some Ford parts diagrams, I discovered that the heater control valve was installed wrong from the shop – the input from the top of the engine was going to where the output back to the water pump should be. As a side effect that would mean water is also going through the heater core backwards. I switched that around. also, there was a loose clamp on the firewall from the heater core outlet, which i tightened. much less leaking now, but still overheating with the heater on.
Pressure tested the heater core. lost about 0.1 psi over 15 minutes, but that could be in any one of half a dozen fittings, so i think it’s fine.
Pressure tested the rest of the system and found that the hose i mentioned before (where i saw coolant leaks) leaks above 12 psi. cap is rated at 16, so that is a problem. replaced clamp. bled system once tonight, but need to bleed again tomorrow (so i don’t disturb my neighbors tonight) and check for proper operation. then i will go from there.
If that doesn’t work, I’ll do more tests but if things go poorly tomorrow I’m thinking I may remove the thermostat and drill an 1/8th inch hole in the top of it to help get air out (if it doesn’t already have a bypass valve.) I read that somewhere.
Thanks for your help! I watched a few more of your videos that you didn’t mention here, but they were helpful also.
after 2 more bleedings today, I have a new opinion… first – you’re right, that new radiator cap is faulty (temporary test, not solution) for the moment is to go without a thermostat. i can live without heat, but not a car that fluctuates its engine temp so much. there is one leak left that concerns me, which is a pool of coolant on the intake manifold, right side in the middle. that can not be explained by the loose hoses i mentioned anymore, so i’m thinking cracks or gasket problems.
finally, after several weeks of this, i’m pretty darn sure i have bled the system sufficiently. so. we’ll see what happens without a thermostat.
Perhaps my old thermostat was stuck open and i never new it, but it seems like this one is not opening fast enough. Also maybe there is restriction in the radiator . Maybe I should back-flush it again (i havent done it yet but the shop should have) before refilling the system.
(sorry if i sounded negative, but i think you would understand that I am really frustrated with this)
It also occurs to me that backwashing might be a bit difficult without the thermo W-|
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