Someone explain this to me please,

[3SheetsDiesel]

Anyone, please explain to me how an alignment can cause a vibration.

Topic

[3SheetsDiesel]

All right jbone, you wanted to hear about some of the mistakes I’ve made over the years, but you don’t like it when I write novel-length posts. Fair enough. I’ll write out some of the long line of mistakes I’ve made over the years, condensed down to a few sentences each. I’m not trying to be mean or sarcastic as I write this, I’m just trying to bring some humor into this place. Ready? Here we go. In no particular chronological order…

Winter time, I’m attempting to do an alignment on a Toyota Camry. It’s been snowing most of the day, and the wheel wells are packed full of snow. I don’t know if you’ve ever done an alignment on a Camry before, but 9 times out of 10, it requires the use of a torch to loosen the jam nut on the tie rod. I lit the torch and proceeded to warm up the jam nut, but I had forgotten two very important things. Thing number 1, the wheel well was packed full of snow. Thing number 2, heat rises, and as snow melts, it falls off of the thing that it’s attached to. Apparently I scream like a girl when a large chunk of snow falls on my head and runs down the back of my shirt.

Replacing rear struts on a third generation Ford Explorer, marking the strut mount to the spring, but not marking the spring to the strut, only to have to disassemble everything again to get the lower strut hole to line up with the bolt hole openings in the rear suspension.

Attempting to replace the alternator on a first generation Ford Focus with the DOHC engine. It’s actually worlds easier to remove if you unbolt the motor mount and pull the engine forward a bit and then put one of the mount bolts back in it’s hole to hold the engine forward, rather than not doing that and banging a dent in the frame rail to get the lower bolt out. Toom me three hours to remove the alternator, and 10 minutes to put the new one back in.

Not looking close enough at the tires I was mounting on a Mazda Miata. The tires I was installing were asymmetric, meaning that they had a side labeled Inside and a side labeled Outside. I had to re-mount three of them.

Replacing ball joints on a Dodge Durango, getting the upper ball joint out of the knuckle, then moving the brake caliper way out of the way, only to have to remove the upper ball joint a second time because I forgot that the brake hose goes between the upper and lower control arms, and not over the upper one.

Replacing the inner tie rods on a Ford Tempo, and not putting the jam nut on the inner tie rod before I screwed the outer tie rod on, then, after taking it back apart again, breaking the outer tie rod when I went to tighten it’s nut down. The threaded portion sheared right off.

Draining the transmission on a Mitsubishi Galant instead of the engine while doing an oil change. In my defense on that one, both of them use a 17mm drain plug, and in the dark it’s hard to tell which is which.

Spending a day and a half diagnosing a headlight issue on a Subaru Legacy, and completely missing the cause which I should have seen right away. The driver side headlight would only work as a high beam, and as a DRL, the normal lowbeam opearation was inoperative. Well, originally the light didn’t work at all, so I replaced the bulb and all I had was high beams and DRLs. I spent a ton of time tracing wires, only to eventually find a burned out fuse. I should have checked the fuses first, rather than waste all that time tracing wires.

Note, my car has an aftermarket exhaust system on it, and it’s easy to tell when it’s running. This is important for this next little story.
Sitting in my car, with it idling, frantically searching my pockets for my keys. I actually called my wife to bring me the spare set out so I could get to work. She came out of the apartment and laughed at me, because my car was already running.

Those are all the ones I’m going to share right now. I’ve got more, but this has proably gotten long enough as it is.

[jacobnbr1]

Customers just want to know you are competent to identify the problem and make the repair for just reasons without coming back and changing the story to sell them more parts because someone was wrong with their diagnosis.
Maybe the customer had an evap check engine light and they paid you to fix but three days later the light is back on. They just want what they originally wanted when they first came in.

I see it all the time and I can tell you what helps in these concerns.
Show them the flow testing tree and the series of tests you performed right down to the conclusion of the tree where it actually says ‘If yes replace PCM’
I take pictures, snap shots from DSO’s and video captures of video scopes to show the customer the evidence that I used to conclude.

In most cases I rarely ever have a customer refute and if they do they are refuting against the facts. The facts do not lie and will keep you safe always even if they do go to another shop that told the customer over the phone that it is probably something else even though the other shop didn’t physically visually inspect the vehicle.

I get customers leave and go to another shop but later return and tell me what they experienced when they dealt with the other shop and I always ask why they went somewhere else in the first place and the usual answer is normally the wait time. All I can really say to that is that this stuff takes time to find the actual cause and even a broken clock is right twice a day but I would never gamble with their money and just blindly throw parts at their car based upon a hunch or guess.

[SpawnedX]

I find jbone is being very unfair and unreasonable against 3sheetsdiesel.

For one, mechanics deserve to blow off steam too, including on the forums, like customers do on forums and public feedback boards about businesses. This is an automotive repair forum, and while some people are not mechanics, some are. This community will go nowhere if everyone who joins relies on Eric to give up his entire personal life to answer all the questions on here. That means mechanics and technicians, such as 3sheets, Eric, myself like to trade stories from shop experiences and sometimes we need to tell eachother about this pain in the butt customer who did or said something unbelievable rather than let the inner frustration eat us up for the day. It’s perfectly natural, and acceptable to do so, and if in the process of doing so, on a mixed site like this, a customer type reads it as well, then so be it. It’s not like you are the one he is talking about.

I have worked many, many, many industries, including banking at Bank of America and investments, and auto repair and part counter help, and let me assure you that the customer is almost never right anymore. The good nature and and generous value in that statement that use to be offered by places has been abused for far too many years by the customer and in the process the customer actually shot themselves in the foot. We all know that when the phone rings or the door chimes that the person on the other end of that is not an expert and that is why they come to us. That is completely different then the person who has to call or visit, knowing our expertise is what they need, and then proceed to tell us we are wrong, that’s not how it works, that’s not the limitation of the system or our system, and Tom Backyard Mechanic that they know through their brother’s wife’s uncle’s neighbor’s co-worker said it could be done. That begs the question, if you know so much more than us and know we are wrong, than why aren’t you fixing it yourself or working in the industry, or why are you arguing with us for 37 minutes rather than making the 5 minute drive to Tom Backyard’s place?

If we can’t harmlessly vent to others of our profession and hobby once in awhile, then eventually it is going to be vented in an unfair manner towards a customer. Mechanics are humans too.

[jbone]

That’s cool, I get it, And i actually found the post of stuff that went wrong was actually humorous and educational.All i am saying is why not tell us a little of both sides and not just focus on what he knows and what customer didn’t know….It just felt at first it was all i know more than customer.But now that 3sheets has mixed it up a bit now i get he isn’t just a know it all .Cause we can learn from stuff that he has done wrong or went wrong as well..If we always dwell on one sided experiences then it doesn’t open up peoples minds on who the person is and what they are all about….So i will end this with Thank You for sharing those stories,it was fun and educational and keep up the good advice and help you bring here…Peace..Jbone…

[3SheetsDiesel]

Quite welcome Jbone. I don’t usually advertise my mistakes, but I can understand how focusing more on the stupid of the customer can make me come across as a know-it-all. Sometimes it takes someone else to call me out on it from time to time. I look back on all the mistakes I’ve made in the past and I laugh at them, mostly because, I like laughing, and if you can’t laugh at yourself, then who can you laugh at? I’ll post some more as time goes on I’m sure.

[SpawnedX]

True, jacobbnbrl.

I am sure though we have all seen situations like:

“My battery goes dead overnight. I need a new battery.”

Then you proceed to explain to them that it could be a parasitic draw, could be a bad alternator, etc. You explain to them that you want to charge the battery and run a few tests on it and also look over the draw and test the alternator before replacing components. Then the customer doesn’t want to hear it, because all they here is hour long diagnostic charge (which at every reputable shop, goes towards the price of the repair if you go through them) and that some guy 3 doors down from them who once replaced a headlight told them it was a battery.

In the end that customer is going to be coming back mad at you for doing as they asked and having to spend more money now than just doingt he proper system checks in the first place.

That’s pretty much what this post was originally alluding to and how frustrating it can be.

– New tires because the old ones wore funny, but the customer doesn’t want you to check the suspension components and do an alignment.
– Brake pads show abnormal wear patterns that indicate a stuck caliper or maybe a pinched line or warped rotor, but the customer doesn’t want to listen because they want to spend the 19.99 for the cheapest pads possible and pay you for 30 minutes of work at maximum.
– Car is idling rough, could be a bad fuel pump, a sticking injector, could be a ton of things, customer just wants to replace plugs and wires or just one or the other because they self diagnosed it on the internet.

As mechanics we know you don’t want to spend more money than needed. We also know if we nickel and dime you, you aren’t likely to come back. Many of us went through some expensive technician programs and take a lot of pride in our work. So the customer needs to extend us a little mutual courtesy from time to time.

Mechanics are human, we do make mistakes, and some of us hate having to be the barer of the brunt that comes from that. I know personally my weak point is in electrical work, it’s just a lot, it’s overwhelming and no one locally has been willing to mentor me on it so I struggle through it. I know recently I made a huge mistake that is probably causing all my other headaches on this car. I got the car with a harness that all the wires but a few were cut out and the kid who cut them left no room on the harness side to solder. So to make my job simple I grabbed a harness from the junkyard with plenty of wire off it and began to figure out where each wire went. Then I had to cut the power and ground wires out of the other harness so I decided it was easiest to cut the top row out and match them to the new harness and then do the bottom row. In my rush to complete it I cut the power and ground at the same time and shorted them out. Now I have parasitic draws and dead components to contend with.

On the same hand, knowing that I am not good with electrical, I kindly explain to people looking to save a few dollars by having me do work on the side, that electrical is not my strong suit and as much as I like to make a few dollars and help, I point them to a better option. Most mechanics are like that. I can honestly say in all my years working on cars I have only encountered one individual, a female, funny enough, who was taken for a ride with parts she didn’t need because she had no clue about cars. That percentage is so low and insignificant that I really start to feel that some people are looking for a reason to pee in your cereal when they come to ask questions.

[mckrishes]

The best thing to do is to explain what the problem is and how you arrived at it. Of course there will always be those customers who refuse to believe what you say for whatever reason.

[3SheetsDiesel]

I had a wonder of a customer come into the shop today. Car was a 2002 Mustang GT with the 4.6L SOHC V8. Their complaint was poor running, noise from the power steering and the brakes just didn’t feel right. I took it for a test drive and verified all of their concerns. I started my diagnostics, which I’m not going to get into the entire procedure here, but suffice to say I traced the poor running to worn out spark plugs, the power steering noise was a leaky rack that had let all of the fluid out, and the reason that the brakes didn’t feel right was because they were pushing the backing plate of the pads into the coolicg fins of the front rotors, and the rear brakes were just above the tattle-tails. The customer approved all the work, parts were ordered and I was told that they needed it back by 5 pm. It was noon when I started working on the car. Starting at about 2 pm, the customer started calling every 15 minutes asking if their car was done. I finished everything at 4:30, and when the customer was told that it was ready to be picked up, they said “That’s OK, I’ll get it tomorrow”. I love it. They spent hours rushing me to get their car fixed, and then they say that they’ll get it tomorrow.

I also had a customer bring in a Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4.0 in for an oil change. One of my co-workers was working on it, and this customer was the type of person who had to stand over your shoulder and watch every move you made as you were working on their vehicle. The engine was coated in oil that had leaked out from somewhere. The customer walked over to me to get my opinion on replacing the oil pan gasket to stop the oil leaks. I took one look at the side of the engine and told him that replacing the oil pan gasket wouldn’t cure his oil leak problem. He asked me how I knew. I used my light and showed him that the entire engine was coated in oil, and said that you always fix leaks from the top down, not the bottom up. I said that we’d need to clean the oil off of the engine first and then see where it was coming from, but the highest spot I could see leaked oil was the valve cover gasket. He thought I was wrong and declined having anything other than his oil change done. I shrugged and went back to working on the Mustang that i was in the middle of when I was interrupted to look at the Jeep.

I also remember another funny mistake that I made way back when I first got into this business. Customer brought in a Miata for some minor work, I forget exactly what they needed, but it’s not important. I was handed the work order and keys and went out to bring the car in. I stand 6’1″. and at the time I weighed right around 310 lbs, so I’m not what you’d call a small guy. Miatas are very small cars, and the top was up on this particular one. After I put the car on (you don’t drive a Miata, you wear it), and closed the door, I discovered that I couldn’t step on the clutch to start it with the door closed. My leg ran into the space between the steering wheel and the arm rest. I had to open the door, depress the clutch and then close the door. Once I figured that out, I was faced with teh dilemma of actually driving it, since i couldn’t let the clutch all the way out due to a lack of movement in my left ankle. I limped the car into the shop and then more or less fell out of it, since my head got caught on the roof while I was trying to extricate myself. I laugh about it now, but it wasn’t funny at the time.

[dreamer2355]

That was a good post 3sheetsdiesel. I love to read about these type of circumstances as well as problems and diagnosis.

Thanks for your contribution to the boards S:)

[3SheetsDiesel]

I had several people come to my shop today with what I like to call RTFM problems. RTFM stands for Read The Fiving Manual, although I usually don’t say Fiving in my daily speech. The actual word is censored, but I’m sure you all can figure it out. The customer complaints were as follows, in no particular order;

Note: I didn’t see any of the actual customers, all I saw was their cars and the work orders.

2001 Cadillac DeVille, fuel filler door and remote trunk release don’t work, although you can open the trunk with the key and there is a fuel door release in the trunk. The fix was to turn the valet switch in the glove box to the Off position.

2000 Ford Expedition, complaint of inoperative windows. Fix was to push the window lockout button on the driver’s door.

2007 Subaru Outback, complaint of parking lights not turning off. Fix was to push what I call the “Noob Switch”, which is mounted on top of the steering column and controls the parking lights independent of key position. When you turn a Subaru off, it kills all the electrics, so you can turn the headlights on and then leave the headlight switch in the on positon forever and it won’t drain the battery overnight.

I also had someone come in who had just taken their car to Iffy Lube for an oil change and now his check engine light was on. Turns out Iffy Lube had disconnected the MAF when tehy were looking at the air filter and they had neglected to plug it back in. I plugged the sensor back in, made sure that the only code in the system was for the MAF (it was), cleared the code and sent the customer on his way.

[pcmdjason]

I work 2 jobs in IT, one a main job at a large company and one at a national retailer that also fixes computers.

All the time I get people “I need you to install an antivirus on my computer, I’m severely infected and can’t get online”

I explain to them firstly installing an antivirus program is not the way to remove a virus and very rarely fixes the infection secondly if the computer will not get online you will not be able to download the definitions which further complicates the matter.

Then I tell them about the virus removal service we have that gets around all those issues and is scanned with 7 different products not just one.

Then they get mad and say “You just don’t want to help me” and leave or refuse to leave and argue with me. Or they think I’m some dumb gamer kid who got a job fixing computers for fun (I’ve been out of highschool for 15 years and have been doing this much longer than that)

FYI: Removing modern viruses and malware is too complicated to explain to a lay person period. If installing 1 program could fix it, then the PC Service industry would close up shop. Many pieces of malware can insert commands into parts of the registry that themselves are harmless as far as antivirus programs are typically concerned but can command the computer to download the latest version of the malware every time the computer turns on.

[pcmdjason]

As far as an alignment not causing vibration, well in a way it can… The alignment issue can cause abnormal tire wear that can lead to the the tire forming a bubble that sticks out and causes the shaking.

[3SheetsDiesel]

It’s true about the alignment causing abnormal tire wear, which iwll in turn cause a vibration, but fixing the alignment will not cure the vibration, although many customers seem to think it will. I try and explain it to the few customers that ask, but none of them seem to listen to me. Sometimes getting information out of people is like pulling teeth. It also seem slike, occasionally, even the sales-people at my shop are out to sabotage my ability to do my work.

For example, work order states (I’m typing this verbatim): “Customer heres nioes” There is also a hand-written note in the corner indicatiing that the customer is waiting, rather than dropping their car off. I take their car for a test drive and I don’t hear any abnormal noises. I go back up front and ask the salesman exactly what kind of noise the customer was complaining about and when the noise occurred. Salesman said he couldn’t remember and that I should just go ask the customer, as he was the only one in the waiting room at the time. I get the customers attention and ask what their complaint was, and he points at his ear and says “I’m deaf” I wish I was making that up. I apologized and went back into the shop. I gave their car a look-over, didn’t find anything wrong with it and sent them on their way.

Probably one of the easiest, an dsilliest fixes I’ve ver had to do was way back in the early days of my automotive career. Customer brings in a brand new Chevy Aveo, complaining about a wierd noise when going around a corner. The car had just over 100 miles on it. I take it for a test drive down some curvy roads, and sure enough, it makes a noise going around corners. It sounds to me like there’s something sliding around in the trunk. I get back to the shop, open the trunk and there is a cardboard box in there, filled with a gallon of coolant, a couple quarts of oil, a bottle or two of fix-a-flat, and several other automotive chemicals. The box isn’t held down with anything other than it’s own weight, so it’s free to slide back and forth, causing the noise. I removed the box from the trunk and placed it on the passenger seat, and wrote my findings on the work order.

[twiggy]

As for the deaf guy, maybe his wife told him there was a noise and to get it fixed? I am borderline deaf and I don’t “hear” any noises until my wife tells me about it. So YES, I wish you were making up that story because being deaf is not fun.

[hondaslave1342]

@3sheets…..i hope you get your answers to your problem…your replys were longer than a SAT exam…did you get it all out? done venting? feel beeter?,,,maybe you might check out http://www.dr.phil.com….man it was painful to the optic

[Author]

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